Allowing players to moderate their own in-game rooms and in-Forum topics

[Guest Ciera]

I think there's a clear argument for something to happen with the way recent threads have gone. If you look at the user list, I can't find the link just now, you'll see that a lot of people visit the forums. Why don't more post? I think we all know the answer to that one.

 

Thanks to my Dad for this link - it shows how we could do things here. He doesn't know why I was interested, lmao. Reaper apparently is a one man band, no pun intended, like here - https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=201752and no the OP here isn't me.

 

To digress a little. When I was at university we philosophy undergraduates were expected to participate in on-line forums run by our and other universities. As you can imagine conversations and discussions were lively, passionate, interesting, funny - basically all the things we enjoy about on-line forums. Yes there were trolls, their posts were usually very clever, mostly funny, very rarely abusive. If they stepped out of line then the moderators would chastise them, even more cleverly, in public. If they did it again they lost their university account.

 

Sagie's thread suggests a way that this can be achieved with minimal moderator input. Like if trolls open trolling threads then people will ignore them. If they troll other people's threads then they get deleted. The trolls will learn quite quickly that they need to up their game adn be more intelligent, clever and funny, and far less abusive, about their posts if they want to have a voice. It doesn't deny them their freedom of speech either, they just have to get better at it. I made a discrete enquiry to the IT people I use for work and they say that forum software is pretty generic now so there's a chance, no guarantee mind, that this package has a toggle to do just what Sagie suggests. The point being that it can be done, somehow.

 

Sagie's idea could be a problem for someone who's first language isn't English, but I think we're all willing to make allowances for that. I think we have all seen posters trying to get round the fact that their English isn't all that good.

 

The other problem that I can see is that the chance of discussions going off in unexpected but worthwhile directions is reduced. A good moderator will spot this. I don't think all posters will.

 

Is it worthwhile thinking more about what we do want from these forums and a little less about what we don't? I think it's clear that the problem is that the trolls are using the forums, to their detriment, as their own personal fiefdom..

[JessicaX]

Genuine question. Why is the User Diary section any different from the rest of the forum? I don’t really see much point in posting a diary publicly if it is just a one way conversation. Also, I have seen user diaries which attack individuals and groups. So either the mods should delete diary posts that specifically attack individuals or they should remain open so the individual has an opportunity to defend themselves. In other words, if User Diaries were limited to who could respond, then they shouldn’t be used as a vehicle to bully others.

 

How would moderating our own diary posts make it a 1 way conversation? What it would do is give us the opportunity to remove the posts that troll. For the time being, I have essentially given up on on making diary posts because people cannot stay on topic, people make replies to things without reading whats already been said, and others simply make posts with no other purpose than to troll or get a reaction from me or someone else. 

 

I have not seen many people use diary posts to attack someone unless they are replying to something and defending themselves, however I see MANY diary posts of people attacking the author of the diary.

[JessicaX]

i would agree with this. very rarely do i just start attacking people in mine out of the blue. Some see it as a easy way to try to troll the diarys owner because he/she is sure they will read it. I will say people say alot shit in yours. when it happens to me i dont care but i can see how a person would give up posting in his or hers due to it.

 

*notice i said most of the time, not all the time *

 

yea and you have played a huge role in that also.

[JessicaX]

well actually if you want to be precise, when i was asked... i stayed out, which i didnt have to do. 

 

I just happened to look at your diary. 5 pages worth of messages. i had a grand total of 3 messages, two of which were me agreeing to not post in it. all on page five. 

 

And I appreciate you following through with that.

[Guest Ciera]

Clearly the forums are being moderated ...................... I'm not sure quite what to make of that at the moment.

[Niblette]

You would be surprised how much they delete threads have a way of disappearing around here after they have served their purpose.

[Sage Stoner]

i think its funny, they bitched about the rule not being enforced.... well, it was. lmao

 

Sure puts the "free speech" argument to rest, that's for sure.  LOL

[Guest Ciera]

I was undecided yesterday but I think it is clear that bad moderation is worse the no moderation. I would suggest that certain people deliberately troll threads they don't like to try and get them pulled. Either that or there's somebody here with moderator priviledges who won't come out and say so directly. I don't know which is which, but we've seen perfectly reasonable threads thrashed and pulled. It seems to me that this has happenned because a small group of people with undue influence have got a bit of egg on their faces.

 

But that's not really what I wanted to look at just now. Devs provide forums to provide two way communication between users and themselves. To find out what users want, identify bugs all that sort of thing, yeah? Trolling prevents this from happenning. Referring to the threads that were pulled - it's clear that a significant proportion of users do not want people openning rooms of an offensive nature in public. A small minority trashed the threads and made sure this message could not get across. Now the messages has been deleted. I wonder about these people's motives for doing this, but then I've developed a suspicious nature lately.

 

A good moderator would have spotted where threads were being trashed and pulled the offending posts, they would have seen where threads were going in unexpected but useful directions and allowed some things to go, they may even have intervened if the bickering started damaging the main point. In short a good moderator is analogous to a good chair of a meeting. I really don't think we've seen this lately.

 

Clearly in these forums freedom of speech doesn't happen and abuse and censorship are the norm. I think this is not good for 3dx at all, although I fear it may reflect a very cynical attitude towards users. When all is said and done it is basically just a quite expensive entertainment software package. Some of the stuff we've seen in game and on the forums cannot be considered entertaining. Sooner or later another software package will start making inroads in to the 3dx user base. If the forums don't work ................................. well I really don't have to spell that out do I?

[Camden]

That’s the thing, that’s how it used to work when the forums were properly moderated. The mods were accused of exercising bias when they were doing their jobs. The gist is people still complained. Some tried calling them out publically. They took for granted what they had.

[Guest Ciera]

If the mods do their job openly, as per my university example, it can work. It did then and with people who were clever beyond we mortals imaginings.

[Guest Ciera]

I was interested to find out what RobT would come back with. His reply is far more revealing than he thinks. Once again he has completely failed to address the point I raised.Has he addressed any of the points anybody has raised?

 

Is it or is it not in the devs interests for the forum to fail in its basic purpose? I think not, as simple as that. For the reasons I have outlined quite clearly. We could, maybe we should, be asking ourselves what we want from these forums.

 

As I say the appalling behaviour people have to endure both here and in game means people will leave. They will leave in greater numbers once there is an alternative, better, product. If the devs cannot find out what it is their customers actually want, how on earth can they be expected to provide it.

 

Maybe Gizmo is as rich as Croesus already and has no interest in how well his product fairs in a very competitive market place. Personally, I don't see that to be the case. He has a good product, which he is developing, albeit rather slowly for some people's tastes. I introduced an example of how a forum can support the work of the devs, the example I used is also a one man band and also a highly complex software product, although not in the same category.

[Guest Ciera]

Point proven, I think.

 

RobT is unable to see the obvious. Software forums are supposed to be a chance for devs to find out what their users want. WIth people messing up this process this can't happen. What's so hard to understand about that.

[JessC]

facts are facts, not my fault if you want to lay blame everywhere but where it belongs. your feelings are hurt, i get it. now you are branching out to to other threads with your crusade. In the end when you are no longer allowed to post im sure you will blame everyone else but yourself. have a nice day.

 

Why would Ciera be "no longer allowed to post"? What rules has she broken?

[Guest Ciera]

If they want to ban me then that’s up to them. It it’s done without good reason it says more about the people who moderate the forums than it does about me. I have always tried to be polite, honest, considerate. I wouldn’t claim to get it right every time.

 

The attitudes I see in game, and on these forums are the reasons I will probably not renew my sub. The reason I might change my mind is because I have great friends in 3dx, I would prefer not to lose touch with them.

[Guest Ciera]

Once again RobT fails to answer a simple question. I haven’t been banned so somebody thinks I’ve not broken any rules. I’ve certainly tried not to. Laura is asking, I think, what rules RobT thinks I have broken.

 

So, polite request, answer the question. Ok?

[Guest Ciera]

Whoops, BorninHarlow - blame predictive text on my iPad.

[Rob.]

FUCK!! I blinked what was the topic?

[Guest Ciera]

Oh and btw - I certainly haven’t broken the rule you quote. Anyway who’s whining? I don’t go on and on with thousands of posts of meaningless drivel, my mere 188 seems quite staid compared to hike I am not perfect, and would never claim to be, I try very hard to make sure my posts have something useful to say.

 

/me is aware of the open door waiting to be leaned on.

[Guest Ciera]

Look at the main point I was making, ok! Paragraph 2 if you want to be that pedantic.

 

It’s what you do time and time again, deliberately misconstrue what people are saying in an attempt to turn things round against them. I’m not the only person who sees it. Now that issue is closed.

 

I’m trying to put forward the idea that all this trolling and idiocy is contrary to the devs interests. Previous threads suggest 3dx is a pretty hostile place to some people, mainly women. Is it a good business model that alienates 50% of the possible user base?

[Guest Ciera]

So why not answer the question, how is it in the devs best interest to alienate 50% of the potential user base?

 

That is the point I am putting forward here. It ties in with Sagie’s original post.in that without people posting crap the the message has a decent chance of getting through. Trash threads and the message is lost.

[Guest Ciera]

Who's blaming anybody, now answer the question you were asked.

 

How is it in the devs best interests to alienate up to fifty percent of the potential user base?

 

I have asked this question several times now and put it in the context of Sagie's original post. It is relevant, and, to my mind, pretty fundamental. It is you, RobT, who are refusing to answer any of the points raised, certainly the ones I have. You have, in effect threatenned me with banning, the offending post you made could be read that way. All this just to avoid answerting a quite straightforward question.

 

OK so maybe you don't agree, maybe you think that is is great for 3dx to become the preserve of men, whether they play as women, futas or whatever.  I don't have a problem with people disagreeing, I just don't think it very healthy, or good business, to ignore large sections of the potential user base.

[Guest Ciera]

Look back and you’ll see it can be read that way. No big deal.

 

Now answer the point I’m making.

[Guest Ciera]

Coffee time over, back to work for me.

[Guest Ciera]

/me looks in from working and finds that RobT has still not answered the question:-

 

Is it or is it not in the devs best interests to alienate up to fifty percent of the possible user base?

 

Or is he saying it is in their best interests and has been for five years? Talk about random drivel.

 

Now back to work again.

[Guest Ciera]

because well over 50 percent have no friggen clue what they want. all you have to do is go thread to thread, they just like to bitch and moan, there is a reason they largely get ignored. first its about no updates, then its about what they didnt get in the update, then its about the update being glitchy. etc, etc, etc. If you have a problem with the fact they dont listen to you, there is a way to fix that. i think you know what that is. 

 

I find it funny you mention random drivel, thats all that you are doing. I cannot help your butt hurt, i only hope that one day you can move on from it. take up sewing or something , it calms the nerves. maybe even bingo

 

The devs?

 

No need for me to say more. Look Rob, you're making yourself look like an idiot. I'm going to stop here before I fall in to my own trap. A little advice first, consider what it is people are actually saying, read the words and think before you rush in to print. You like to think you're an intelligent man, use it. Yeah?