DetoxDave

Here’s the post Twiggy made showing her PM’s with Gizmo.

If someone starts a smear thread, Kimmy, then i’m sure it will get reported, directly to Gizmo in the absence of any moderators. Gizmo has shown that he will act effectively when believes he should. If the trolls invade someone’s thread then, if they are given the tools, the offending posts can be removed. If a troll thread is opened people have the choice of viewing it or not, responding or not and so on. When the trolls invade other threads, at present the thread is ruined until Gizmo is able to do something, the person interested in that thread has no choice but to wade through the trolling to find the key points they are looking for. If people do ignore the troll thread then it removes the trolls’ influence, if they don’t it contains the nastiness in one place making it easy for Gizmo to intervene and act effectively. There is a post in the other thread which says that giving thread openers the tools to moderate their own threads will give them ownership, a reason to moderate well. Most people, I believe, will moderate their threads well. If they stifle the debate people will make a new thread elsewhere and ignore the original. The idea of thread opener moderation has all the checks and balances needed for an effective solution to support any intervention Gizmo decides to make.

Vaughan has missed one aspect that has been part of this thread since it’s inception, namely that of what to do about in game bullying and unpleasantness in world chat. I’m not sure I see the point of drawing these out in to separate threads except as a means of summarising a consensus, which is an excellent idea. Keeping the overall discussion about several related themes together is indicative of how contributors are thinking about these issues. So I don’t see problem with letting them run. Since this thread settled down i’ve found most people’s contributions helpful and interesting. We can see how a forum can operate, most of what we are talking about is how to keep it this way.

This thread is quite a good idea but might be best used as a summary thread. As I see it the consensus from the previous thread seemed to be that in the absence of any moderation of the forum the moderation by the thread owner/starter is a compromise worth trying. In any case Gizmo has indicated that is an option he would like to implement, Ash has indicated that it is a practical possibility and Rockster has indicated how it could work. In short this aspect has largely run its course apart from keeping the idea live enough to encourage Gizmo to do the deed.

There are two aspects to this discussion. The first has been about self moderation of forum threads. The consensus seems to be that it’s well worth a try. Gizmo has given a commitment to this, Ash has indicated that it is a practical proposition in his experience, Rockster has indicated how it could work from his experience as a moderator. I really ought to acknowledge Twiggy for re-opening the topic too. In short, let’s get on with it. The second aspect is World Chat, which is nothing like so easy to attend to. Trolling and bullying is the norm there, as far as I can see, and is a far more serious problem than spamming rooms. World Chat does need some level of moderation, the minimum being responding effectively to reports in an impartial and consistent way. To my mind the optimum would be active, real time monitoring of World Chat. When this is coupled with allowing room owners to eject, room wide ignore and ban people who cause trouble provides a powerful tool to make life difficult for trolls. In short, room owners moderate their own rooms. The public rooms are the responsibility of the official 3dxChat moderators to police. I haven’t addressed the associated issue of bullying by PM, bullying by hug or kiss etc, although in user rooms a room wide eject, ban or ignore would be effective. Would a room wide block of World Chat by the room owner help? I’m just thinking aloud here so please forgive my being a bit random. I wanted to open up discussion about in game trolling and bullying.

You make a very good point, Vaughan, and in a forum with active moderation your view would carry the day. The key thing, to my mind, here is that there is no moderation so Gizmo has to intervene to deal with any problems. This isn’t the best use of his time so it happens sporadically and for a short time. The issue, therefore, becomes one of what can we do to reduce trolling, bullying and abuse. I like the idea of thread opener having control over what happens to their thread. My reasons - very much as has been said before. Offending or seriously off topic posts would be deleted. I think, Vaughan, that you overstate the risk that a thread opener would delete posts disagreeing with their point of view. Most people, in my experience, enjoy debate and find civil argument interesting, informative and stimulating. I think the first posts to be deleted would be offensive or abusive posts, thereby making it more difficult for the trolls to derail a thread and start their insults and abuse. At the end of the day it is Gizmo’s decision and he has indicated that it is on the cards for the next forum software update. The sooner the better as far as i’m concerned. As Twiggy says, if it’s just a setting in the software then if it doesn’t work out it can easily be switched back.

I too like the idea of being able moderate your own threads. I think the majority of people would do it well, because most people welcome discussion. A civilly presented case against one’s own is informative and stimulating. Humour is also welcome to lighten the mood. Rudeness, insults and abuse would, I suggest, be the first things to be deleted, to the benefit of the thread, and the forum as a whole.

I agree too, Chloe. I disagree with Vaughan slightly in that i think it’s healthy to have a dialogue in people’s diaries. This particular one has reached a good place to finish. Time to dust ourselves off and move on.

Reading between the lines of Gizmo’s post in the Upcoming Updates 2019 thread I think we see a commitment to the future of the forum. His work in cleaning up thee forum this morning shows that he is interested is what happens here. Thank you Gizmo, I hope your efforts will bring about the changes you desire.

Sleeper_Girl’s goes to a ‘you don’t have permission for that’ screen whereas RobT’s link is dead. Does anybody know if these are different types of ban?

That's OK, you don't agree with me. I won't try and force my opinions on you and I don't expect you to try and force your opinions on me. I'll continue to act according to my conscience because ignoring the trolls means they just carry on and do what they do. As soon as somebody posts something they don't like, or they think a new member is somebody they don't like, they'll be in there insulting, abusing, demeaning. If enough people support the person being attacked then the trolls will eventually realise that their behaviour is unnaceptable. Saying it's all just words on the Internet is denying the proven link between Internet bullying and suicide, self harm and mental illness.

It's clear to me that you're on the side of the trolls. Imagine yourself in the situation I described. How would you feel? Take it a step further, how would you feel if it went on every time you pposted anything, for months with new lies being made up. That is unacceptable and anybody who did that to you would deserve as good as they give. In a forum with proper moderation the people bullying you would be removed whenever they appear. Lastly, are you suggesting that a man shouldn't support women in the struggle for equal rights? I'm no white knight, I'm no patronising fool who tries to take over and run womens' campaigns for them. I try my best to stand alongside women in their struggle for equality as an equal, not as anything special. I believe that the abuse of women in these forums is an attempt to promote an image of womanhood that had largely dissappeared by the end of the 1970's. Anybody who posts showing they have opinions and ideas of their own gets attacked. If you can't see that as wrong then you'll never get it and end up supporting the trolls.

You are very niave, rhet. I suggest you think a little bit more. If I block RobT, say, then I don't see what he posts. It doesn't stop him abusing women and telling lies. Only the moderators or overwhelming public opinion can do that. The analogy spelt out is that authorities in germany stood back and let the nazis rise to power. The bully boys cowed the population with threats, murder, beatings, destruction of homes and businesses. In due course the nazis came to power, all because the authorities stood back and let it happen. Do you see it now? If Gizmo refuses to act against the trolls then the only recourse is for us, the forum users, to do whatever we can to deal with the problem. I'll give you an example. You say you served in the armed forces and had relatives who were killed in the second world war. Imagine if I, and some friends, were to spread a rumour amongst your friends here that you were a coward, that you are telling lies about your service history and that your dead relatives were shot for cowardice. You would every right to be very, very angry. If then you were ridiculed for being angry and the lies against you and your relatives were repeated and repeated. Now that is typical of what the trolls do and that is why it is so important to do somethign about them.

Have you missed the recent press coverage of how social media companies have failed to prevent the posting of self harm images resulting in deaths. DId you not read Rocksters post where he presented an article written by a journalist who had been badly trolled? Have you failed to read about those situations where people have been bullied in to suicide by trolls on social media? The trolls can cause damage to people, in fact that is what they consider a big success. THat aside it is not acceptable behaviour to demean and abuse women, or undetake any of their other behaviours, whether it's in real life or on the Internet. If you can't see that then you are siding with the trolls and furthering their cause.

Do I have to explain myself again. I thought I'd made the point clear several times over the past few days. No action has been taken by the authorities, Gizmo, against the trolls so their power has grown. We have seen that they are happy to promote violence against women, they make homo and transphobic comments, they insult people showing no respect for people's deceased relatives, they abuse women, they deny people's gender. All this is not only against the rules but is contrary to normal standards of decent behaviour. We have no moderators now so who's going to stand up to these bullies if ew don't do it ourselves. To do nothing is as good as actively supporting them, in fact that exactly what they want so they can carry on bullying and harrassing people they don't like or they disagree with. Now do you see the anology?

Are you trying to justify RobT accusing Chloe's ancestors, I know RobT said descendants but it's clear what he meant, of genocide? Do you think that is acceptable on a public forum?

It's a far better analogy than you might imagine, rhet.

And there you show your lack of historical knowledge. There were active nazi parties all over Europe at the time. There still are. There are also nazi and extreme right wing organisations in the states. History tells us that if the authorities and populations don't stand up to fascism then it will grow and flourish. Just like the trolls have taken over here because the authorities, namely Gizmo and the moderators, haven't acted against them for a very long time. It's now up to the 3dxChat forum user base, and the game user base in game, to show the trolls up for what they are and to do whatever we can to either expel them from the forum and game or get them to behave like normal decent people.

Mar_Mohan’s reports are pure bluff

He’s found a new toy so he’ll play with until it breaks. Rather like some part of his anatomy. Sorry, I think I gave him the idea.

If you can post a screen grab of the original post of yours. He just makes himself look foolish then. Editing quotes is child’s play, editing in context screen grabs is much more difficult.

I have a walk home along the seafront on a fine, but cool, afternoon now that i’ve Finished my coffee at a nice cafe looking out over the yacht harbour. Before I go i’ll Say this to Xandisweet, as a good friend of his you should say that his opinions are wrong if you believe them to be so. I think both you and I know the outcome if you did. He would be being honest to himself if he said the things he does to others to you.

I doubt she’ll screen grab anything her friends say, no matter how obnoxious. She might post them after they’ve been heavily photoshopped. Should I dig round in my backups for forensic image analysis software?

Who wants to be friends with someone who promotes violence against women, bullies, insults, tells lies, makes homophobic and transphobic comments etc. no matter how nice they are to your face?

A perfectly good point was made, Mar_Mohan, that 3dxChat is threatenned by trolls. Your response is threats of reports and quote spamming. I mostly agree with the opinion. The issue is what, if anything, can be done about the trolls derailing every thread they don't like. Some say not feeding the trolls is the answer. That's fine if you don't say anything they object to. As soon as you do they'll be in there bullying, ridiculing and abusing. Easier not to post at all, but where's the benefit to the forum in that. The forum needs proper moderation, as does world chat in game. to remove bullies and trolls. As I've said several times before, remember kristallnacht - if you don't know about it I suggest you google it. It's what happens when the authorities and the population do nothing. In short this is just another example of what the trolls do. Do we want to forum to just consist of fun games? I think we'd all like something a bit more. Some threads survive, partly because they don't say anything the trolls don't like or they are 'friends' with the trolls. We've been told that RobT is a nice guy to people he likes but goes 'a bit too far' with people he doesn't. I suspect that even if a person he doesn't like makes an innocuous post then that person will still be attacked. For example, my post in my diary about fighting fascists in the mid 1970's was reported by Mar_Mohan and included in a whole heap of quote spam. Go and look if you want to check it out.