Perimede

Was that really necessary, Hotness? You are attacking Rockster but not actually addressing what he is saying. So far this thread has remained civilised enough to run, your post is on the borderline of being offensive. Come on people, let’s get back to thinking about what the OP was actually wanting to achieve.

I've just gone through this almost properly, there's too much of the old style crap cropping up to motivate me to take it all in. Ex has come up with an idea that has potential. I guess she's pretty tech savvy too so considers it quite feasible from a coding point of view. I think with all the debates we've had recently it is clear that there is a problem. Enough people want to know that the person they're speaking to isn't going to mess with them. As Rob says, Ex's idea brings Pandora in house, which is where it should be from the point of view of data protection. Jess says that a large proportion of users have used Pandora in some way, me too in that I got a friend to check me out to help me deal with an attack by someone. That suggests that there is a need, in fact Pandora would never have been created or survived if there wasn't a need. As a result of the above I have doubts about Pandora, on several levels. There's no need for me to outline them other than to say that keeping the facility in house mitigates those doubts straight away. So let's analyse Ex's idea, involve ourselves in Xeno's latest poll, look at Niblette's suggestion and try our bloody hardest to take a real step to deal with people who try to make our 3dxChat experience far less fun than it should be. Gizmo will pick up on clear ideas that will improve his product, because it is in his interests to do so. It may take him a while but that's OK. So no more mud slinging, yeah. Banter is fine, even serious debate can be fun.

Oh and Briana knows where to put an application form!!!!!! Seriously though it doesn't have to be like that, or arduous if thought out properly.

It's still good you're getting invovled, Sam. And you're right it isn't purely a sex game. I think it's the social thing that causes people to stay, certainly my experience is that it is.

/me grins at Sagie and thinks he's a pedantic old sod. It's worth a try, isn't it. And any results could be interesting for a whole host of reasons. Good luck, Xeno!

I think there's scope for something in Niblette's idea. Like if the game suggests people who you might have something in common with it means you can approach them with a little more confidence. To be honest I do find myself a little reticent making the first move in approaching a man, like you don't want them thinking you forward or anything. It'd just give you something more to go on and enable you to say something interesting.

I've only skimmed through this, Ex, as I'm not all that tech savvy but it looks good. I just wanted to let you know.

She's saying it again because she feels people aren't getting her point - basically, as I see it, she's concerned about people messing other people about, whether it's with alts or not. I think she has good reason to feel that way, I've been on the receiving end of my share of dodgy dealings, and no I won't go in to any sort of detail. Does anybody here deny that there are people who deliberately go out of their way to be hurtful, annoying or offensive? Does anybody here think it is a bad thing to want to do something to make 3dx life more difficult for these people? IMHO that is the big point behind the OP, Twiggy's stand point and my own. Nobody's trying to dictate the what to anybody, this discussion is revolving about whether or not we can find enough common ground to reach a consensus other than the poll result. If we want to seek out that compromise this discussion still has life, shutting it down means that the pople who like to bugger others around live on with relative impunity. If we shut it down now it'll only reappear in another guise as the issues will not go away. Oh and btw - attacking Twiggy for expressing her opinions is not exactly good manners. She has as much right to express them as everybody else. I say this now because I think that is happenning, I don't want it to escalate into the kind of thing we were seeing here a few months ago. As I see it, people are becoming entrenched. Stand back a little and rethink and I think a surprising amount fo common ground is there. I still think we should be looking at the question of what behaviours are unnacceptable in our 3dx Chat community and what we want to do to deal with them. I think we'll find that there is a large area of common ground on the former, less so on the latter ................... where there's a will tehre's a way as my Gran says.

I think we agree on that, Ex -) The issue i’m trying to draw out is what can be done to deter the people who bugger about. I’d like something in addition to the iggie system to be possible. Now to go take a look at Niblette’s thread............ isn’t it good that we’re talking around this stuff and coming up with a few ideas.

Quite a lot if you read what I've said in context .................................. grrrrrr!!!!!!! /me thinks Sagie has been spending too much time disturbing a certain Panda's cocoa experience.

/me looks around for shoes to throw at Sagie ................ finds she's wasted them all .................................... grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!! Seriously, I do want to pick up on Sagie's point first. There are behaviours which are unnacceptable in 3dx Chat, the ToS are there for a purpose. Here's listing the ones I did before and maybe one or two others if I can think of them. No Nos - rooms with offensive names, bullying, racism, sexism, I won't mention the r word, wanking off over people without their permission, spreading rumours, agression, arrogance, rudeness, inconsiderateness and so on. Yes's - accepting people as they are, being polite, being considerate, honesty, being supportive of friends, telling good friends when they've been pillocks without making too big an issue of it and so on. As I see it one of the key things Twiggy is concerned about is people who develop friendships and then use that to cause distress. People who develop one to one relationships and then play out, either as an alt or as their original avi. People who then spread rumours about someone. This seems to be a particular form of bullying, unique (maybe) to 3dx Chat. It can cause great distress, Twiggy is right to be concerned about it. I'm not happy about people trying to brush it under the carpet in the name of individual freedom. What concerns me, on skimming through the posts over night, is that there seems to be a big push arguing for an anything goes ethos in 3dxChat. I suspect from odd little things I've overheard or been told in game that there is some seriously dodgey stuff going on behind the scenes. OK if it's in private then you can't really do anything about it, and it is in private anyway. I suspect that the dodgey rooms issue, which has cropped up from time to time, arises to try and promote that agenda. OK I can't prove this and don't expect anybody to agree with me, it's just an intuition. The fact I've been right about some things before does not mean I'm right all the time. I do think this, though. This anything goes mentality is what's behind the problems we get with behaviours in game, and the ones we've had on the forums. These debates are about trying to find out what people see as the accepted norms. I think I can safely say that most users don't want an anything goes thing going on, they want to have a bit of fun with their mates, make new friends, make nice places to go and share, meet people they wouldn't otherwise get to know. Some of us are concerned that this anything goes thing reduces the fun we can have with our friends - and yes the worry that one of your friends has an alt and is saying stuff behind your back is not exactly conducive to a warm and fuzzy feeling. Ex has argued very strongly that most people don't use alts for nefarious activities. Basicaly that means Ex wouldn't dream of behaving like that as an alt. That is correct, and the vast majority of people who use alts are the same. Twiggy recognises this in her arguments but seems to have to keep saying over and over again that the minority of people who use alts to cause trouble are a problem. Just because Ex, or anybodyy else for that matter, wouldn't use alts for this doesn't mean to say that the minority who do don't cause harm, trouble or distress. The focus of the debate is those people who deliberately cause trouble, I don't think that includes any of us involved in this thread. Well I hope not anyway! There are people who've argued that it is pointless trying to deal with this because some people will always behave badly. That is so defeatist - In rl shall we stop catching, prosecuting and jailing murderers because it won't stop some people murdering? As I said before, there are some behaviours that are not accepted in rl society, 3dx Chat, and all other virtual worlds, are exactly the same. There is a compromise in there somewhere if you chose to go looking for it and are prepared to accept it. Come on guys lets have a go at approaching it that way? So maybe we could be looking at what behaviours the troublemakers get invovled in, get a sense of who they are in general terms (not individuals), get a sense of who they affect in general terms (not individuals) and then start thinking about ways of mitigating the disruption they cause. One last point, the devs define what is and what is not acceptable behaviour by defining the ToS and then implementing them in terms of action. We have seen that they do act on reports, even if it isn't always particularly quickly. Nobody wants making reports to intrude on their having fun which is how troublemakers get away with it. That suggests an additional mechanism would be a good idea, in the absence of continous, on-line, active moderation.

I’ll say again. What is it we want to achieve? What is the outcome? Unless, of course, you’re one of the people who wants to cause trouble in game. We all agree that some behaviours are unacceptable in game. Surely it is a good thing to want to try to reduce their incidence? That is what this thread is about, isn’t it.

Aren't we forgetting here what the proposal is trying to achieve? Maybe we should be looking at the outcome rather than the method. If we can agree on outcome then we are more likely to agree on method? As I see it the outcome the OP wants to achieve is one where it is more difficult for troublemakers to cause trouble. The OP is, like many of us, fed up with people behaving badly in game. The specific behaviour being 'mind fucking' as it seems to be called in this thread. There are others. I don't think anybody would say that is not a desired outcome. Maybe we could start a new poll with a question based on that. Looking back over discussions here it is clear that there are certain behaviours that are considered unaceptable both in game and on the forums. Anything that reduces the incidence of these behaviours can't be totally a bad thing, but some compromise is always required to enable things to happen. If loss of alts, or highlighting alts, means people can't bugger about then that's OK, those using alts for sensible purposes will find a workaround. If miscreants are forced to create new paid for accounts they'll think twice. 3dx Chat isn't cheap entertainment. OK the vote shows people want to keep their alts, that's fine. Can we have a new suggestion about how to reduce the incidence of bad behaviour?

Never say never:-) It’s always worth trying to reach a concensus. It helps if people try to avoid getting entrenched in their own views.

Me again, just reviewing what people have said over night. I'm struck by the two views on privacy. There appears a strong, what I see as largely, American view of privacy which seems to be that any intrusion by anybody is a complete no no for any reason. There is also a more tempered approach, which I'll call European, where we are prepared to accept certain intrusions for the greater good. What it boils down to is whether you're playing as an alt or not, yourself or not, roleplaying or not, you don't have the right to behave like a twat. Treat people OK and generally speaking they'll treat you OK. Drive that ethos home, whether by policy, coding, talking about it or just living your 3dx life as decently as possible the ethos will gradually take hold and the trouble makers will become less of a problem. OK they won't go away altogether, we're all human after all and you may be the nicest person ever but you're still capable of doing something idiotic. This debate is about how we can get the people who misbehave to choose to behave better. The way I see it is that the privacy lobby are saying no, no, no because the proposal here intrudes on thier right to make alts and behave in whatever way they chose. Given that, what actually do you do to get people to conform to sensible norms? This debate is based on a suggestion that could help, OK as the vote stands now it has been defeated, but we're still talking about it. The logical extension to the privacy lobby is to say that people have the right to murder, rape, steal, defraud and society has no right to stop them. So lets open the worlds prisons and see what happens? There are certain basic rules society expects it's members to conform to. 3dx Chat is no different in this respect. The ToS outline the basics as the devs see it. Bullying, mind fucking or whatever you want to call it is contrary to ToS, even if not explicitly stated .............................. so what do we do to help reduce the incidence other than keep reporting people who do it. Most people don't have the time or inclination for it. We have seen, however, that when enough people make a concerted effort things do improve dramatically. So maybe what is needed is an approach more rooted in acceptance of the norms of 3dxChat rather than enforcement of those norms. Before anybody says that this is the online world so there are no norms, the vast majority of people in game behave pretty decently towards each other, so there must be. Maybe we should ask what they might be. There's the usual isms, if I were to list them:- racism, sexism, etc. We don't like bullies, trolls etc. We prefer people to avoid behaving like idiots and to be polite. We do like meeting people, particularly from a wide range of cultures. We do like talking about ideas and beliefs and getting to know people we wouldn't otherwise come in to contact with. We shouldn't have to worry about the possibility that the people we meet might be up to no good. I don't really think anybody could argue with that, unless they want to be pendantic about the use of 'we' in this context. Pandora came about because somebody saw a way of making a bit of money out of people who are fed up of being messed around and manipulated. I suggest that it was placed on the dark web and people pay via bitcoin because the people behind it wanted to hide. Now that makes me suspicious for a start. Then, of course, the market increased to include those people who like to mess around and manipulate. What is interesting is that I haven't discovered anything similar for SL or any other virtual world, which suggests that the problem of bad behaviour with alts is primarily a 3dx Chat one. As I see it this discussion has presented the fors and againsts of the proposal. The time is right for a new proposal - could we have one from the privacy lobby? As I see it the proposals we've had on the forums so far have been from the 'we have a problem with in game behaviour' lobby.

To be honest i’m not quite sure why Ex and Twiggy are banging away at each other. It seems to me there is more common ground between them than not. Myself I tend to lean towards Twiggy’s view because the way I play the game is similar to hers. I do have an alt who was created to allow me to experiment with stuff without messing my main avi up. She does venture out very occasionally. Having said that I can see Ex’s point that alt’s can be enabling and most people use them sensibly. Neither view alters the fact that there is a minority of people who cause trouble in game. I feel that they have landed in 3dxChat and made themselves at home. Honest sensible discussion here, together with reporting them in game when they overstep the mark, will all help to encourage them to move on or change their ways. So what am I saying here? I suppose that this discussion is good and should continue but it makes me feel uncomfortable when people appear to fall out.

I'd like to pick up on Briana's point about the game being either and extension of rl or roleplay. There is room for both, they aren't mutually incompatible. But problems can occur where someone who plays in the manner of the former gets attached to someone who plays in the latter (maybe, and this isn't intended as a criticism of anybody, the people who mess around see what they're doing as as form of role play. I don't know I'm totally crap at role play). The scope for misunderstandings ....................... is like enormous. Again it comes back to being aware of what's going on and doing what you can to avoid problems. The troublemakers will reveal themselves as the ones who then use this as a way of creating even more drama, sadly. To my mind the discussion overall seems to be leading somewhere. I, for one, am getting a better sense of what is happening and perhaps a feel for what can be done. OK it's not developed into anything concrete yet but maybe that'll come. I do like the way it has sometimes looped back, revisiting old ground, and moved forward again.

/me rushes to AHT's defence and throws shoes at Sagie. Wench!!!! what kind of language is that .................................... !!!!!!

Hi Tia, you've made a good point. The bad behaviour seems to go in phases, I was going to say spurts given one of the annoyances ingame. I think, and I hope I don't speak too soon, that overall things are improving, partly due to the discussions we have here. I've not been confronted by a naked wanker for a while or somebody who seems to assume that just because you're there you're going to fuck. As I've said before it's the attitude stuff that gets to me more, mostly in game I've been lucky with the reputation destruction stuff. There are people here who've taken a whole load of crap from people. I suppose one classic example people quote is that they come under a lot of pressure to prove they are female rl, and succumb to the pressure, only to have it thrown back at them - I assume so as to make them feel bad or to discredit them in some way. I can see how that sort of thing can be very hurtful. Nobody likes to be made out to be somebody other than they are, or a liar. The people who do cause trouble cause far more of it than their numbers would suggest, and it can be really, really unpleasant for some people. I don't think it wise to underestimate the damage they can do to the game. I can only speak for myself here but I do find that when someone new talks to me in game I feel a little uncertain and want to check them out a bit first, just in case. An empty profile shows they're either a noob, which is OK, or up to something. I don't feel good about being wary of noobs, like they should be made to feel welcome. It's not my fault I've come to feel this way, it is the fault of the people who've undermined the 'all noobs welcome' thing by behaving badly.

It can't be as good as this!

It’s technically challenging to develop stand 4 so you throw up randomly on people’s shoes. Could it explain people wedged in the walls of Sin when they pretend to be sitting in deckchairs on the beach?

Sagie is obviously happy to associate with drug runners, arms dealers and peadophiles - yeah I know he isn't really, I just couldn't resist teasing him. Another seriously though, Jess is exactly right, the fact we're having a decent discussion about this is fantastic. This bunch of issues aren't easy but it's great we're having a go at getting to grips with them. The poll may show that people are generally not in favour of Xeno's suggestion, but the fact we're still talking about it shows we recognise the issues and want to see what can be done.

I have a theory about that, Mei. Not that i’ll say on a public forum. Seriously though it’s about the people who’ve landed in 3dx Chat and have created a vibe. I also feel that the trouble makers have been allowed to get away with too much for too long.

Are you saying that random hugging/colds etc are OK because it's possible to do it? I don't think you are, to be honest. Even a total noob knows that some behaviours are decidedly suspect. I am convinced that the people who cause trouble are not noobs. I agree that trust is the big issue with this and the Pandora thread. While people can play pretty much how they chose they do not have a carte blanche to be annoying, offensive or rude. Just like rl, people temper their behaviour to suit the community norms. It's not like saying 'you will not do this or that', the ToS outline the basics. I think what we are trying to do here is to establish and make known our community norms, the things we take pretty much for granted in rl.

This is starting to go round and round - the point I am trying to make is that you simply do not go up to a random person in the street and hug them. If you did you'd prolly get arrested or a black eye. If you went up to somebody on the beach and wanked off over them you not last any longer. If it's not OK in RL it's prolly not OK in 3dxChat. It really is that simple. Just because it's pixels doesn't make it OK. With regard to the rumour mongers, yes I agree there are some people in RL who delight in that sort of crap, as in the virtual domain. Again it is quite simple, if you don't like rumours being spread about you then it's probably not a good idea to spread rumours about other people. Bullying is exactly the same, as is causing trouble in people's rooms, world or local chat. It is not about dictating how other people play the game, there are some behaviours I think most of us would agree we can do without in game. It is about respect, decency and basically being a normal human being. People who use alts to go snooping or to stalk someone are doing something wrong and deserve to be viewed with contempt. This is all very different to people using alts for role play, getting a bit of peace and quiet while building or whatever. Nobody is arguing that alts are a bad thing, just that a sufficiently large minority use them in a way that becomes a problem. As I understand it Pandora is on the dark web, accessed through Tor or something and paid for by bitcoin ........................... does that say 'this is a reputable product' to you?