Perimede

It might make it a little more difficult. $20 per month per account is a far slab of spondulies. Maybe a reasonable meal out for two every year.

In game, take a look at Pandora and you'll see am avi deleted in November. Very meaningful. There's no record there if the last login. Btw it was deleted two weeks after I renewed my sub after about six months break. So if you're going to use Pandora info use the complete data set and not the bit you think will cause the most trouble.

Interesting, Robt. You have to make it stick. Remember when someone who could well have been one of your ALTs accused Desirea of being me. Remember how you accused someone of being me when she posted at a time I was flying to Poland with my husband sitting right next to me. You think this one is any more believable? We know what you do, anything to discredit people who stand up to you because ...... Well I think we all know why.

Just me and CIera, who I deleted. RobT, name just one of the other identities I've used on tme forum and make it stick and you might just have a point. It really is time this thread was locked - this tit for tat thing won't take us anythwere and does nothing for the point that Ex's idea does actually have some merit, even if it does raise some questions. So let's talk sensibley about that, then it won't matter one iota if someone is an alt or not providing they have something useful to say. I do object to people making stuff up about me, and I think that might contravene ToS - I'll take a look and if it does I might take the trouble to report it. In the meantime I've got other stuff to do.

Here is a truth as I see it - TheTruth3dx is so obviously an alt that has been created to help make it seem like a certain opinion is more widely held than it is. Mar_Mohan suggests that I have done the same. I'd reply that it is what people say and not who says it that is important. It has taken a while for people to enter the fray supporting the idea of encouraging good manners in game, now that they have we're seeing things turn bad. That is why I have asked for the thread to be locked and I've also asked for someone to take the trouble of going through it to decide if ToS have been broken by any individuals. I think it best to act early to stop the rot before it takes hold. I don't think we want a return to how things were three or four months ago. We have had a few topics raised where people are actually trying to suggest things that may improve everybody's game experience. With Xeno's poll he is seeking to understand a little more about what people do with the game. This is all good, OK the suggestions do far have issues as well as merit - why is it so hard to discuss this and perhaps come up with new, better ideas. Denying that some people do actually behave very badly in game doesn't solve the problem they cause. So if you accept there is a potential issue here, what would those who really, really don't like what has been proposed so far suggest? I'll repeat that discussing things here does help, possibly more so than in WC. I don't think I'm alone in never looking at it because of what sometimes goes on there. As for the dodgey rooms, going in to them and remonstrating with the room owner didn't halp. The same people reappeared pdq doing it again. What made the difference was making reports and grizzling here. Gizmo responded to the threads where this happenned - go check, they're only locked and not deleted. Previous ones on the same topic were deleted because of the appalling behaviour of a few posters who deliberately set out to get the threads pulled. That's me done in this thread. I hope it will be locked soon.

Grrrrrrr ..................... lmao I was generalising to other sources, including Pandora. /me sticks tongue out at Sagie

Damn that wasn't meant to happen!!! I thought I'd clicked on edit. All I wanted to do was mention Xeno's other thread so as to tie them all together a bit.

Reasonably, rather ............... hmmm OK. Just acknowledging the points you've made, and maybe winding you up a little because you've been rather absent whenever I've been in game lately. We might not agree on something but I do find it useful to hear what you have to say about stuff.

Here's a few interesting figures:- Of the 9 people who have 3 avis, 6 of them use them equally. Of the 11 people who have 2 avis only 1 uses them both 26 people, the vast majority, use mostly 1 avi Ok there may be overlaps here and there but I don't think those are significant. I suppose we should be asking ourselves what these figures are telling us. As Sagie said they do correlate rather well with other data that has been unearthed in various threads. So maybe one approach to make bad behaviour less atractive could be to restrict users to 1 avi per account and make it much easier to do things like tweak your avi without destroying what you already have, to build in peace (perhaps a 'do not disturb' option). The save feature goes some way towards this, maybe being able to save the avi separately to the clothes? Perhaps organise clothes into outfits? We do, I think, need more options for customising avi's. That way people who want to role play can have different outfits, appearance etc to suit the role. Those of us who prefer to play more true to rl can make our avis as close to an idealised version of ourselves as we can, and experiment with looks we wouldn't try in rl.

Sorry, Sammael, I didn't acknowledge your position. I probably should have. I was actually referring to the one or two people who posted in previous threads and said that poor behaviour meant that they would not renew their subs. I still think it odd that so many people think it OK for Pandora to have access to 3dx Chat data - I vacilate quite a lot about what to do about people who cause trouble. I think something extra is needed over and above the iggie and report features, but I'm not sure what. I do feel, as I've said before, that it's more about discouraging bad behaviour. If more people choose to behave better it is likely to stick more than trying to impose something. However if they choose not to then something else is needed. These related threads, this one, Ex's thread and Mei's thread are looking at possibilities. They each have their own merits and also raise issues. Pandora, according to the reviews I've read, was created to enable people who're having trouble with partners in game to check them out. It has since become a tool for the bullies round here. That is worrying. Thinking about bad behaviour I endured my first random hugger for a while. I challenged him and he apologised, but not after hugging me again. I resisted telling him to eff off. I do wonder if my efforts have been rewarded with a more considerate version of that person. In itself it's not that big a deal but it shows that the hugger thinks that it's OK to invade a woman's, or anybody's, space without invitation. Now if he'd had a T shirt on with saying 'Say hi if you want a friendly hug', that would have been completely different. It says so much ...................... yeah? It's like those people in Slough, I think it was, who did a free hugs there thing to cheer people up.

I've dropped a PM to both Ex and Gizmo suggesting that the thread is locked - I think some people have overstepped the mark and tried to turn this into a point scoring exercise. I like to think we have discussed the suggestion thoroughly and people can make up theri own minds about it, possibley contacting Gizmo directly if they feel strongly enough about it.

REALly! Now let’s get back to talking about Ex’s suggestion.

This is my only forum account. I deleted Ciera for a number of reasons. If you go and look you’ll find she’s gone. So don’t try and pull that one. This is unlike some who’ve got permanently banned. Anyway the topic is whether or not Ex’s idea is any good. I don’t need to reiterate my opinion on that one.

Yeah, right .......................... such a familiar turn of phrase. Somebody with seven posts to their name, who knows the ToS inside out. The venetian mask suggests, just like in Carnevale, that the person appearing next to you is probably known to you. Having said that, the ToS are the guidelines and I think most of the incidences of poor behaviour are contrary to ToS. Most of the time it is too much of a faff to report them, and in any case the perpetrator has run off and done his, note his, worst elsewhere by the time you've got everything set up to do so. What i, for one, am arguing for is for the people who behave badly to think a little more about what they do and consider that they might get on better in game if they are nice to other people. Like most testosterone fueled, sex obsessed blokes in the game realise that they are much more likely to get a shag if they talk to women nicely. The few who don't ................ only succeed in pissing people off. Is there anybody here who has said to themselves 'OMG that guy wanking off over whoever over there must be such a nice guy. I really must make friends with him'. OK it's a very simple example but it does make the point. Treat others as you would like to be treated and maybe we'll all get along a bit better.

I just want to pick up on the fun thing Rob was referring to. I don't think anybody said the game was becoming not fun, just that it is less fun than it could be because of incidences of poor behaviour. A relatively smal number of people have said that the poor behaviour they have experienced has been bad enough to cause them to leave. I do think, though, that poor behaviour is not helping people to stay - it is said in marketing that for every complaint there are ten other customers lost who haven't complained. As I see it part of the fun of the game is meeting new, interesting people from different cultures. This is in addition to the basic fun of hanging out with friends. The incidences of poor behaviour do not help the former to get going. In fact they make you, as in me and like minded people, suspicious of noobies. As I've said several times already that I check people's profiles before I decide to respond to them. At times when I'm sitting alone on the beach I'll check the profiles of people with interesting names. Even then I find myself a bit reluctant to start a conversation. That is not good for my game and, in my opinion, not good for the game in general. It's not an imperative but I would rather like to be less cautious about new people and to avoid incidences of poor behaviour. I do feel strongly enough about it to involve myself in discussions about what might be done. And yes I do try my best to overcome my reticence.

Oh dear, here we go again .......................................... this is drifting back to how things were a few months ago. Here's a point - 24 out of the 31 people who responded, not including those who voted not to respond, to Xeno's poll play mostly with 1 avi. Therefore a majority of people only play with mostly with one avi, they don't need more except for things like building, trying stuff out etc. So does it follow that a majority of people need more avis? The people who really need more than one or two avis ................................ one has to ask, why? The just under 20% who play with all three avis includes the people who cause trouble. I have to ask why they are so determined to avoid any sort of restriction on their game play. As an aside, maybe Xeno should have asked how many people have multiple accounts as well. Nobody has accused the devs of being liars, we've nagged them because they haven't yet managed to do stuff they say they are going to to do ..................... seriously though they do deal with stuff when it's brought to their attention. Good examples being the way they acted against poor behaviour on the forums a few months ago and they way they acted against the dodgey rooms. All credit to them for that. When it comes to game development it is Gizmo's decision what changes to make and when - but I am certain that he takes in to account what we, the current users, say. Given that nearly 80% of users play mostly with one avi, then any developments should be aimed towards the stuff they want, whatever it might be. The thing that keeps cropping up is poor behaviour in game and how it may be discouraged, prevented or dealt with. The specific form of poor in game behaviour under discussion at the moment is they way some people use multiple avis to cause problems ....................... doesn't anything that addresses that issue benefit those people who play mostly with just one avi?

There are few people who obviously never have discussions about anything with their rl friends because it won't change anything. Instead they constantly write to their MP's? Surely nobody should have to justify opening a discussion on the forums. If it so happens a conscensus emerges then I think Gizmo will actually consider what, if anything, he wants to do about it. In the final analysis it's his call, 3dx Chat is his business. So back to the question of what is behind these three current related threads - Basically some people use multiple avis to cause trouble, nuisance or distress. The discussions revolve around what, if anything we can do about this because some of us feel that this behaviour is not doing 3dx Chat any good in the same way it is making 3dx Chat less fun that it could be. Is there anything wrong with wanting to talk about it with other 3dx Chat users? Is there anything wrong with making and assessing suggestions? The reason Gizmo 'does nothing' from the discussions is because no clear ideas are allowed to emerge. He probably starts reading and thinks 'life's to short' and gets on with his current bit of coding and game development. Ex has presented a clear idea, it has some merit as well as creates a few questions, as does Xeno's suggestion. What I see in some of the responses is people trying to prevent anythign changing because they have a vested interest in preventing things from changing. Change is inevitable if 3dx Chat is to grow and develop - isn't it better to involve ourselves in this by discussing stuff sensibley?

Am I the only one to think that some people are fighting fang and claw because they know that to use avi's to mess with people's heads is wrong? Protecting people who do this sort of thing, even though you may not do it yourself, is encouraging the practice. I'm quoting Jess because I agree with the point that these discussions don't have to lead to action to be useful. I think they produce benefits more subtley and probably in a more lasting way because they affect how people choose to play.

I think you did in the earlier post unless it was post modern total bollocks!

/me decides Sagie is a total plonker and doesn't even deserve shoes thrown at him. Another seriously though - and back to where this started. Ex has come up with an idea which addresses the issue of how bad behaviour can be discouraged. I don't think ignoring bad behaviour is really an option. There are people in game who deliberately cause trouble ranging from unpleasantness to causing distress. They don't seeem to get the idea that if you treat people as you would like to be treated then we'll get along pretty well and the 3dxChat community will thrive. So these related threads are about thinking about how bad behaviour can be discouraged. Sagie is right in that how we react when somebody does something horrid can affect how that person thinks about things. That, to my mind, doesn't remove responsibility for the action from that person. So just giving that person a bollocking or putting them on iggie, even overlooking the behaviour doesn't really deal with the problem in the first place. Niblette is leaning towards something more proactive and she has a point, I'd like to hear more about how she visualises her ideas. It really does come back to something quite simple, that if you cannot accept the accepted mores of the game, as defined by the ToS, then you shouldn't be using it. I think most of the stuff we grizzle about, even naked wankers (who are a really easy example to use and crop up often enough to be really annoying) are probably contravening ToS in some way. Certainly those who go out of their way cause distress and spread rumours must be. We have the iggie which is reactive, we have reports, which are also reactive and a bit of an intrusion in to having fun. In an attempt to be proactive people are putting in their profiles 'colds not accepted', or something similar. I suspect that the people who do this don't read profiles, and those few that do think to themselves 'here's a candidate I can annoy'. So these related threads become about trying to find a way of establishing some kind of accepted mores for the game. These discussions, even when they fail to reach a conclusion, do put the message across. I've said before that the irritations that get to me in game are less frequent at the moment so I like to think that we do have an effect. Challenges on big issues, like the dodgey rooms, have been effective and in that case the moderators have acted because the breach of ToS is clear. What we are looking at now is situations which may not be quite as clear cut in terms of a breach of ToS but can still make the game less fun than it could be. I suppose, to close this post, I'm trying to say that I'd like to see more ideas presented in the hope that something that is acceptable to a majority of users will emerge.

I can’t resist this one! So it’s my choice when a naked wanker comes and blows his load over me? It’s my choice when someone decides to try and trash what I say? It’s my choice when someone decides I shouldn’t have a valid opinion because i’m a woman? The problem is that iggie is reactive so is like closing the door after the horse has bolted. I think people would quite like something that discourages bad behaviour. You can, of course, respond to these things in different ways, but the primary responsibility lies with the perpetrator.

I suspect that the account wide iggie was developed simply because of people using alts to mess around - I also think that it has been a problem since 3dxChat's inception. It occured in SL, and other virtual worlds, and was challenged quite robustly both in terms of policy and the way users dealt with griefers.

So war has been declared? And against a particular group of people who play in a particular way ................................ and there is a strategy invovled. So why accuse them of paranoia when you are actually out to get them? There is room for all of us in 3dxChat providing people treat each other with common decency. Maybe what you've said is just post modern irony .......................... in other words total ................... :-)

Sorry, double post again - this is almost getting a habit. The poll is telling us something, and is confirmed by other data too - Sagie and Jess are barking up the right tree here. As of now, nearly half of users only have one avi, which is supported by Sagies data from Pandora. While interesting in itself I think the result for how people use their avi's is the really interesting one - roughly 80% of users play mostly with one avi. This confirms Sagie's point that a few 'bad apples' are causing far more trouble in game, and probably on the forums too, than they should given their numbers. So back to where these related threads started what do we suggest is done about people who deliberately cause drama, trouble, whatever you want to call it? Personally I think the user base would grow much faster if the trouble makers were weeded out and encouraged to bugger off somewhere else. In a previous thread the idea emerged that many people join for amonth or so and then leave. Ok this might happen for a whole host of reasons but it really doesn't help if they are unfortunate enough to become victim to some idiot out to cause trouble, or perhaps read some of the stuff that goes on in WC. The people who do stay do so because they have made friends, but they tend to stay in quite small groups.

/me has an idea whose alt TheTruth3dx could well be, OK I don't really know but he is using a tactic that was once so very common on these forums, and gradually seems to be creeping back. Jess is right in asking how the data gets in to Pandora - does Pandora have to log in as a user, if so who? Is Pandora driven by a bot that toddles round reading profiles, scanning wc and local? How does Pandora scan the data without logging in, which begs the question how come somebody, or something, can access 3dxChat data without logging in or having an account?