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I think what many are forgetting is that just because diary topics could have option of self-moderation, does not mean that they are off limits to the forum moderators.  So, no, Mar free ability to insult and degrade would not be allowed.  It does not have to be a one or the other situation.

I know that, I was stating that in the mean time any post asking it to stop will be removed while waiting for the report to be reviewed which lately has taken more time than it should have.  The turn about could easily be that the offended person starts a new thread and does the same thing so neither are right in the sense and should be dealt with by Forum Moderation/Devs.

 

Edit:  I'm going to add this in here.  Right now there are some threads a few within the very User Diaries that are directed at me for baiting.

 

One states about investigating and if possible close a matter unless new evidence appears.  This was already on a now deleted thread and there is no reason for that to even be brought up anymore.  Instead it was, I've reported it.

 

We can't sit here and think because what some claim is the only problem that this forum is now so much better but when I seen that post and a few others, I have to say that no the problem isn't solved and it won't be unless it stops.

Edited by Mar Mohan

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I think another thing that should be mentioned which is relevant to what is being said about deleting posts in threads.

In reviewing what can be set in this forum software, a forum moderator can set it so deleted posts are still kept on the server and available for review by them for a determined amount of time.

 

Also I would like to remind people that as Ash pointed out, self moderating rights can be taken away from each individual.

So anyone abusing the use of self moderating will not be able to do so for long.

 

The biggest thing that self moderating should be able to prevent is pages and pages of fighting, which normally includes things no one wants to see in the forum like, insults, slurring, degrading and discrediting, discrimination and outright lies.

This has been going on in this forum for far to long and normally goes unchecked for days to even weeks.

We have threads where there have been page after page of it and it has even transferred across to other threads.

 

This is the main thing we are trying to stop.

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In response to Susan - No you do not.  As I have stated until it's removed that person(s) is/are made to be uncomfortable until it's removed by a Forum Moderator/Dev.  At present it from what this forum looks like as well as previous, it lacks the attention it should have.  Threads and posts that should have been removed aren't, any other forum would have removed them as soon as possible.

I still stand by what I say when I said the forum needs to be shut down and cleaned up, proper moderation set up even if using the tools from the software to help keep it clean and action taken such as warnings, suspensions and/or bans as necessary to show that it won't be tolerated.

 

Adding if this is the best solution to solve a problem, it's really not.  People are still doing it at present to get others to respond.  It's been directed at me over several threads and instead of responding I reported it.  So with self-moderation, to me and what some others have said wouldn't work.  Comments can be deleted by others on their thread, even though reported as it's been shown takes time.  While the comments that were deleted can be put back, that's all well and good but at the same time, what forum moderator/Dev are going to take the time to do it.  So far there hasn't been much done and things are still a mess on this forum and needs to be cleaned up once and for all.  So what if it's down for the clean up time, think of how much better it'll be once it's back.  One of the nice features that the soft has is for key words or phrases to look for, it's a great tool that I don't think is being used.

I'm sure with the money made from the subscriptions, that it covers enough for the costs of the forum server and game servers while offering even a part time position to a couple of people who aren't a part of the game or connected to any of the players to be forum moderators.

Edited by Mar Mohan

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Professional moderation and getting moderators from outside the game has been discussed to death in this forum.

I myself have tried as hard as I can to get that realised and others have to, many times.

There have been links given to companies on the Internet that supply professional moderation.

If you look back through this thread and the other thread where it is being talked about you will see where we all seem to agree that would be the perfect solution.

It also seems we have all accepted it won't happen except for you Mar.

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I'm going to edit myself.  There are more than just I who are opposed to this so there is absolutely no need to make it out to be just me.  When I'm being asked to stop in a PM but yet anyone else is free to post on this very thread.  Why because I'm giving an opinion that's opposite of what someone thinks I should be given.

There are more people on this forum that cause issues not just those that recently have been claimed to be the problem, fuck yes it still exists and always will.

Enjoy!

Edited by Mar Mohan

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Everyone's ideas and views have a right to be expressed.

 

Lets not make it personal.   Everyone is making some good points and this is an interesting topic and much is explained by members who have been here longer than others

 

We are actually doing ok at the moment and everyone is being respectful of peoples view points.

It seems in the past, one or two poke, others react and suddenly we have bedlam. Lets not allow that to happen anymore.

 

I'm enjoying this discussion and am reading everyone's ideas and solutions with interest. 

Its all good stuff. 

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Where has anyone said it is just you Mar that is opposed to this.

We have a good discussion going on about if self moderation should be tried or not and for once things are being discussed calmly.

The point I made is that you seem to be the only one that does not want to accept that Gizmo will not employ professional moderators.

We have tried for years to get him to do so in many threads with no success.

So please don't try to turn this into yet another thread on trying to get something that has been asked for many times before.

I have probably started more threads and done more posts than anyone else over the years asking for professional moderation,  copping reactions like stop trying to beat on a dead horse.

I stopped trying because even I got to realise that it will not happen.

As I said, we all seem to agree that professional paid moderation would be the better option, but history tells us we will not get that, so we need to look for alternatives.

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In response to Susan - No you do not.  As I have stated until it's removed that person(s) is/are made to be uncomfortable until it's removed by a Forum Moderator/Dev.  At present it from what this forum looks like as well as previous, it lacks the attention it should have.  Threads and posts that should have been removed aren't, any other forum would have removed them as soon as possible.

 

I still stand by what I say when I said the forum needs to be shut down and cleaned up, proper moderation set up even if using the tools from the software to help keep it clean and action taken such as warnings, suspensions and/or bans as necessary to show that it won't be tolerated.

 

Adding if this is the best solution to solve a problem, it's really not.  People are still doing it at present to get others to respond.  It's been directed at me over several threads and instead of responding I reported it.  So with self-moderation, to me and what some others have said wouldn't work.  Comments can be deleted by others on their thread, even though reported as it's been shown takes time.  While the comments that were deleted can be put back, that's all well and good but at the same time, what forum moderator/Dev are going to take the time to do it.  So far there hasn't been much done and things are still a mess on this forum and needs to be cleaned up once and for all.  So what if it's down for the clean up time, think of how much better it'll be once it's back.  One of the nice features that the soft has is for key words or phrases to look for, it's a great tool that I don't think is being used.

 

I'm sure with the money made from the subscriptions, that it covers enough for the costs of the forum server and game servers while offering even a part time position to a couple of people who aren't a part of the game or connected to any of the players to be forum moderators.

First off I never said that I don't accept that Gizmo won't.  Read back through because I've not said anything until this quoted post of mine and I've put in bold, there are people out there will do something for free as part of an experience that they have to gain like an internship as my friend from Denmark had to do or as a part time gig.  Edit:  It was a suggestion like anyone else has made.  The software offers things that help with moderation but right now it doesn't look that it's being fully used.

Edited by Mar Mohan

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There seems to be a pretty obvious point waiting to get out here. If Gizmo wanted to pay for professional moderation, he would. He has decided that moderation, even using people drawn from the game, is not something he wants to pay for, for whatever reason, but he's indicated that his preferred compromise is user moderation of own threads. SO let's give it a go, yeah. Like it can only improve things, like it doesn't actually matter who the culprit actually is for trolling, thread owners will remove troll posts from their threads. SImples yeah.

 

What we, like all of us, want is not to be confronted with abuse, lies, insults, slurs, degrading, demeaning, discrimination whenever a half way decent discussion gets going.

 

An oh and btw edit here, and very much an aside. This morning I've had a bit of a nose round looking for baiting posts, just out of interest and to make sure that I don't come out with anything totally idiotic. Anyway I couldn't see any baiting posts whatsoever, anywhere.

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So it boils down to this of it being said no baiting when there is, accusing another user who's no longer on here and doesn't care to be because of the disaster of this forum and those who think they are above the rules is supposed be the new users that have been banned have a motive, that some are loud and complaining about bait posts as well as not seeing it when it's actually being done and reported and the kicker is being told to not give my opinion on this thread because I should want moderation, well guess what I do want moderation but I don't think it's a good idea for users to self moderate.  As it's been said before, people see and don't forget what has been written even if deleted, when people fail to see things for what they are, that's where the problem of self moderation and the need for actual Moderators/Devs to step up and do what is necessary to prevent it.

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Am I being a bit thick here? Would you care to quote the baiting posts you are complaining about? I couldn’t see any, so maybe I was looking in the wrong places.

 

In any case that’s not actually the issue, although it connects well to the main point. Troll posts and baiting posts will, almost certainly, be deleted by the thread owner when user moderation comes in. Problem solved, imho.

 

Troll and baiting threads can be reported, directly to Gizmo in the absence of any moderators, and dealt with as he sees appropriate. Also problem solved.

 

So it boils down to this of it being said no baiting when there is, accusing another user who's no longer on here and doesn't care to be because of the disaster of this forum and those who think they are above the rules is supposed be the new users that have been banned have a motive, that some are loud and complaining about bait posts as well as not seeing it when it's actually being done and reported and the kicker is being told to not give my opinion on this thread because I should want moderation, well guess what I do want moderation but I don't think it's a good idea for users to self moderate. As it's been said before, people see and don't forget what has been written even if deleted, when people fail to see things for what they are, that's where the problem of self moderation and the need for actual Moderators/Devs to step up and do what is necessary to prevent it.

To close, I thought that part of Vaughan’s intention was to try and draw a line under the recent argie bargie and to move on. Of course he also wanted to separate this set of issues from all the other stuff being talked about in the developments thread.

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Yes. Best to draw a line under everything.  Start a fresh now Gizmo has given us a new chance by taking some action to help us.

 

We have turned a corner. A good corner.  Let's not blow it.

 

We can all do it with co-operation, working together, being tolerant and by respecting each other. 

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I agree. I think it might be hard for some. I think self moderation of own threads will keep the forums calm. I think misunderstanding’s can be resolved by talking. Here perhaps or in PM.

 

Yes. Best to draw a line under everything. Start a fresh now Gizmo has given us a new chance by taking some action to help us.

 

We have turned a corner. A good corner. Let's not blow it.

 

We can all do it with co-operation, working together, being tolerant and by respecting each other.

 

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Self moderation is linked to Roles on the forum, it cannot be assigned to individual people. Let's say we did a test run of Diary Moderation which makes sense, so you'd create a "Diary" role on this forum and give it the lock/unlock own content as it gives you the capability to remove any off-topic or offensive posts, that are posted on your diary, or you may just want your diary to be completely locked and only unlocked for yourself to make a post to avoid any distruptions to the diary posts. The only thing is, will this lock/unlock bypass a Mod/Admin lock on your post, I do not know as I haven't had time to test it yet.

 

As I mentioned previously it can be assigned to a specific role(s) As you can see in this screenshot of a test forum I have set up with this software: 6ee95185ff.png

 

 

But there is also an "Auto-Moderation" system, but I do not think this will be ideal here as it can be given false positives as it is based on if "X Post gets Y amount of reports for Z Reason" it will then auto lock/delete the topic, this can be used by some people who have a lot of friends here.

But here it is in the settings: 11cdb30498.png

 

 

There is of course multiple filters you can also set for the said auto moderation system.

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Ash's post is ace, like it seems there's loads of possibilities. I wonder if part of Ash's post is indirectly asking us which direction we to go in. I don't know about anybody else but for me a bit of advice would be useful. I'm also kinda assuming that Ash has Gizmo's ear so if a coherent approach comes out of this discussion then Gizmo is likely to give the nod pretty quickly. Like something's got to happen, I don't think anybody wants to see the kind of stuff that was happenning over the last month or two.

 

Liek there's two sorts of trolling, the funny stuff - shall we call it 'Butt hair' from the vid that was posted and the nasty stuff, abuse. I suppose it coul dbe broken down further, did we once talk about three or four levels of trolling. Anyway 'butt hair' is OK, if a bit gross, if threads aren't derailed by it. The abuse we can do without.

 

Back to where I started - my vote is with users having post/thread delete and lock rights to any threads they start. Mods/Gizmo have full rights to everything (obviously). Kinda keep it simple then people will go with it. I suppose, like most software, it can be quite fiddley to achieve something conceptually really easy. Anyway what's needed now is to develop some kind of consensus on this, remebering, of course, that proper independant moderation has been ruled out.

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So the self moderating can't be switched off for individual people, I thought you said somewhere it could be, or maybe I just got that from where you mentioned it can be set to have it so you have to qualify for it 1st.

Well that makes a difference as we would then have to rely on account suspensions or bans to stop people from misusing it.

I do still think it is well worth while giving a try though as I don't believe people will misuse it as much as some seem to think.

Ash ? In the "The author must match the following filters" section, can more be added to the "Groups".

If so couldn't we add something maybe named "Member Moderator", then if they are to get set back to member and lose the moderating tools.

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I just finished watching a TV program in the last hour about pill testing and safe injecting rooms during which the people on the panel all agreed that there is no one magic silver bullet, and that certain measures are all only part of the answer to help reduce harm from hard drugs. Much like that, there is no one magic silver bullet to combat problems on the forum here, but little things one by one will all add-up to improve things. Self moderation of created threads is one step towards that. Will self-moderation completely fix abuse? Nope. Will it help to clear some of the shit away from some specific threads and give users a little bit of peace? Yep. As I have said before, currently there is no escape from trolling (though at times like this when the spotlight is shining on them directly they can all go quiet so it has been rather peaceful of late as you will all have noticed but make no mistake they are waiting in the wings watching intently and reading every word and will start-up again if the conversation dies out and the worst of it will return) and no matter what thread you are in, you face the prospect of it turning into a shitshow at any moment. It's about choice, and currently we have none. I'm aware of the arguments some have put forward about the possibility that people will create their own threads and continue trolling there and in fact use the new self-moderating feature to silence people they do not like in order to get away with all sorts of crap. But as I have also said before, I could choose not to go to those threads and only spend time in threads which were moderated effectively and had no shit in them, that gives me choice. A choice I currently do not have. If it helps to clean up even some of the forum and creates pockets which do not have trolling in them which I can then choose to frequent, imo it is well-worth launching. Not a silver bullet and will not stamp out all issues, but a step in the right direction and a part of the puzzle.

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So the self moderating can't be switched off for individual people, I thought you said somewhere it could be, or maybe I just got that from where you mentioned it can be set to have it so you have to qualify for it 1st.

Well that makes a difference as we would then have to rely on account suspensions or bans to stop people from misusing it.

I do still think it is well worth while giving a try though as I don't believe people will misuse it as much as some seem to think.

Ash ? In the "The author must match the following filters" section, can more be added to the "Groups".

If so couldn't we add something maybe named "Member Moderator", then if they are to get set back to member and lose the moderating tools.

 

Yes, I mean you assign them to a role that doesn't have the capability to lock your own post, it's why I mentioned to create a new role so those who do abuse the lock/unlock mod action will be assigned this other role and have their ability to lock/unlock their posts disabled, so as it would stand right now.

 

 

The updated version of this forum software has a ton of new features available that this version 3DXForum is using is missing, also plugins can be used as well, which can extend certain functionalities outside of the default forum software functionality. If you all are interested in the different functionalities this forum software supports check this link and click the appropriate functionality: https://invisioncommunity.com/features/more/ also it'll be good for SGD to assign a Security Certificate to 3DXForum when the forum eventually is updated.

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Yes, I mean you assign them to a role that doesn't have the capability to lock your own post, it's why I mentioned to create a new role so those who do abuse the lock/unlock mod action will be assigned this other role and have their ability to lock/unlock their posts disabled, so as it would stand right now.

 

 

The updated version of this forum software has a ton of new features available that this version 3DXForum is using is missing, also plugins can be used as well, which can extend certain functionalities outside of the default forum software functionality. If you all are interested in the different functionalities this forum software supports check this link and click the appropriate functionality: https://invisioncommunity.com/features/more/ also it'll be good for SGD to assign a Security Certificate to 3DXForum when the forum eventually is updated.

 

Oh good, so we can still have the feature turned on and off for individuals.

Just a thought, as it may be something that could be a compromise for the people who do not want self moderation, where we would be able to just delete posts from others in our threads.

Is there a way to be able to flag posts for deletion ?

The idea here is where we see a post in our thread, or maybe anywhere for that matter, that we feel needs to be deleted, we can flag it for deletion.

Which I know would mean more work for the forum moderator than complete self moderating of our own threads, but should also help the forum moderator as they could quickly see posts that should need deleting.

The forum moderator could also then judge if it should be deleted or not.

Is just a thought for compromise to the people that don't like the idea of post being deleted by us.

Although I still feel for dairies the owner should have full rights to delete posts.

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Oh good, so we can still have the feature turned on and off for individuals.

Just a thought, as it may be something that could be a compromise for the people who do not want self moderation, where we would be able to just delete posts from others in our threads.

Is there a way to be able to flag posts for deletion ?

The idea here is where we see a post in our thread, or maybe anywhere for that matter, that we feel needs to be deleted, we can flag it for deletion.

Which I know would mean more work for the forum moderator than complete self moderating of our own threads, but should also help the forum moderator as they could quickly see posts that should need deleting.

The forum moderator could also then judge if it should be deleted or not.

Is just a thought for compromise to the people that don't like the idea of post being deleted by us.

Although I still feel for dairies the owner should have full rights to delete posts.

 

 

Yes, it will be reviewed by a Forum Moderator whether it to be removed or not, but there is also other systems you can play with, with plugins that can make these things easier in the long term. But yes, currently with default software it will require a moderator to review but it will be a much more streamlined system as the current system on this forum version is pretty rubbish. (I remember from the past.) which makes it a bit of a chore to review individual thread posts. Also for multiple reports of the same topic, an option to select each post a "check box" that only a mod/admin can see to hide multiple posts at once, rather than dealing with one report, then going back and dealing with another in the same topic.

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I personally like the idea of having a sense of responsibility when we start a topic. However, I also feel that instead of it being solely self moderation, there should still be a global forum moderator or more since 3dxforum has grown quite a bit.

 

The forum members that start their own topics can (within reason) edit or delete posts inside their topic, I've seen other forums do it this way and it works relatively well.

 

The Global moderator(s) could take care of the escalations, including but not limited to: repeated harassment from a forum member, any profile violations as according to the official Forum rules

 

http://3dxforum.com/index.php?/topic/1425-3dxchat-community-rules/, thread cleanup when needed.

 

Again, just my opinion. I think It would be a good idea.

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