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I want to start this post by saying that in an ideal world proper independant and professional moderation is the optimum. Gizmo has decided he doesn't want to have to pay for this because, I assume, it is too expensive. I gather that until now he has relied on people from the game, with all the problems associated with that. Then, more recently, he has given up on any moderation whatsoever other than that he can do himself.

 

I'm going to post this to the other thread as well, the two seem to be running in parallel. My apologies if anybody sees this as an inconvenience.

 

I'll quote part of the most commonly quoted rule, 2.02. This provides a good starting point for discussing any behaviour.


"The idea behind this is to prevent any player from consistently being uncomfortable on the forums."
 
If any behaviour causes anybody to feel uncomfortable on the forums then it is breaking this rule. Particularly so if it is intentional.

 

The abuse of women, gays, trans or any minority is not aceptable under any circumstances and breaks this rule. Neither is it funny to abuse women, gays, trans or any minority. I don't think anybody can disagree with that. Both examples break this rule because it makes women, gays, trans or any minorities abused feel uncomfortable about using the forums.

 

The behaviour we have seen recently can only be classed as abuse, in any case posts promoting violence against women, insults, lies etc all break this rule by making people feel uncomfortable about using the forums.

 

This thread, and the related section of the other thread, is about what can be done to reduce this rule breaking in the absence of any moderation. The proposal is that thread openers should be able to moderate their own threads. This could work, this has been gone in to and has been shown to be a solution Gizmo favours, is a pratcial proposition in terms of the software and is workable in terms of the level of responsibility on the thread opener. The vast majority of thread openers will take their responsibility sensibly, in my opinion.

 

The suggestion will not affect people who participate in discussions sensibly, their post will stay in the thread, be read, mulled over and replied to. It won't affect people who inject a little humour in to what could be rather dry topics. Who doesn't like a bit of humour, providing it doesn't break the rules or derail the thread. The only people it will affect adversly are the trolls/bullies whose posts will be deleted as soon as the thread opener logs on again. The only places remaining for trolling and bullying will be those opened by trolls for trolling, or those people who tolerate them. If things get out of hand then, judging by recent experience, Gizmo will act as effectively as he sees fit once he has been informed.

 

All in all what's not to like, given that professional moderation is probably not going to happen.

 

I recognise much of this is repeating points already made. I don't see any harm in this as, to my eye, the discussion has started to drift away from the fundamental issues.

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The other one was obviously off-topic. The other topic is about the game not about the forum. VR showed you what is self-moderation. Off-topic should not be accepted by the ones who want more moderation.

The biggest force to drag a thread off topic is currently you.

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There have already been a few posts over several threads to bait me but instead of me responding I reported it.  I've also seen the jabs and have reported them as well.  Now that it's on the OP thread I do not believe that they would remove it even when it's also a friend saying it but instead remove the comment I make or someone else asking to remove it.  So while Gizmo may have come on and did a few things this forum has a very long way to go before it's cleaned up and looks like an actual forum that users post responsibly.

Some of this is happening in User Diaries, so no I don't think users should be allowed to moderate.  Get real Moderation on here, use all options with the software, clean up the forum, monitor what actually goes on, listen to reports and take action sooner instead of waiting.

 

 

 

Adding that while in a User Diary that is self moderated we would only be able to report the post and wait hoping that something is done sooner before it gets out of hand.

 

Adding to this again, this topic is also in User Diaries on a thread so this is being discussed on several threads.   I think what V has done it try to keep it to one thread so that the Devs have one area to look at for feedback instead of countless.

Edited by Mar Mohan
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So let us not change anything? Sure no need for this since the forum is such a welcoming place and nobody try to troll your threads. With self moderation a lot of the recent dramas could have been avoided. With more and active moderators too of cause but we all should stop to demand things which will never happen. Before they will pay 3 full time moderators they will close the forum.

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The biggest force to drag a thread off topic is currently you.

 

Do you think so? I am just showing that self-moderation does not work.

If you want a better forum...behave well and trust the administration of the forums. There is no needed changes it's up to each of us to have a better forum:

 

Courtesy, respect and avoiding off topic:

 

It's less work for the administration, more pleasure for the members.

Have a nice week end

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If you are not able to moderate yourself (posting twice or being off topic, etc.), how  could self moderation work? If to defend your advice you low yourself to personal attack, how could self-moderation work?

 

I rely on Gizmo or Liza. It may take time but they are ok. I trust them.

 

again have nice week end.  :)

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So we allow for baiting in the User Diaries only letting those that agree with what we post and then remove any comment that goes against it.  All while reporting and hoping that something is done sooner than later.  This past few weeks is a prime example of that and yes it is still going on with the baiting that's also taking place in User Diaries.  So if the users get to moderate in the User Diaries section those being baited and such have to wait for their reports to be looked at before anything can be done.  That's why I don't think it's a good idea.  I'm not going to point directly to the threads that are baiting in the User Diaries, I already reported them but that's proves that this place shouldn't have self moderation when the OP is already part of the problem.

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I’d say that this topic is drifting again. The bottom line is that abuse of women, gays, trans, bullying, insults etc are against the rules, particularly the ubiquitous 2.02. Without moderators, which everybody agrees would.be the ideal solution, another approach is required. Gizmo has already indicated user moderation is the approach he’d like to implement.

 

Anybody who agrees that the abuse of women, gays, trans, minorities, bullying, insults etc are behaviours that aren’t wanted will accept that some action is required from Gizmo. Recent events show that there are some people who refuse to moderate their behaviour.

 

If you think that the abuse of women, gays, trans, minorities, bullying, insults are all part of normal discussion will, of course, not want anything to change.

 

I think the vast majority of people would prefer to do without abuse, bullying, insults etc. User moderation of your own threads makes it that much more difficult. It’s the best solution we’ve got so far. If Gizmo wanted to pay moderators he’d already be doing it. The implication of his intent to introduce user moderation is that he doesn’t want to have to pay moderators.

 

It all boils down to this: i ask people reading this post to ask themselves this question. do you think abuse, bullying etc should not happen on a public forum or do you think it should. Ask yourself which side you are on and act accordingly.

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I think what many are forgetting is that just because diary topics could have option of self-moderation, does not mean that they are off limits to the forum moderators.  So, no, Mar free ability to insult and degrade would not be allowed.  It does not have to be a one or the other situation.

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I’d say that this topic is drifting again. The bottom line is that abuse of women, gays, trans, bullying, insults etc are against the rules, particularly the ubiquitous 2.02. Without moderators, which everybody agrees would.be the ideal solution, another approach is required. Gizmo has already indicated user moderation is the approach he’d like to implement.

 

Anybody who agrees that the abuse of women, gays, trans, minorities, bullying, insults etc are behaviours that aren’t wanted will accept that some action is required from Gizmo. Recent events show that there are some people who refuse to moderate their behaviour.

 

If you think that the abuse of women, gays, trans, minorities, bullying, insults are all part of normal discussion will, of course, not want anything to change.

 

I think the vast majority of people would prefer to do without abuse, bullying, insults etc. User moderation of your own threads makes it that much more difficult. It’s the best solution we’ve got so far. If Gizmo wanted to pay moderators he’d already be doing it. The implication of his intent to introduce user moderation is that he doesn’t want to have to pay moderators.

 

It all boils down to this: i ask people reading this post to ask themselves this question. do you think abuse, bullying etc should not happen on a public forum or do you think it should. Ask yourself which side you are on and act accordingly.

 

the vast majority of peoples reprove this and report to Gizmo and in the mean time report all kind of abuses in the forum (as trolling wedding topics, or others diary). Gizmo and Liza are there for this. They are our "law enforcement team".

have a nice week end.

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I’m sorry Mei, but the point is that there are no moderators and haven’t been since Lisa last logged in in November. Since then Gizmo has been trying to do what he can. I think he recognises that is not sufficient, hence his indication that user moderation is something he will implement with the next update of the forum software.

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I like what Louisa says, yeah. Like official moderators, and Gizmo, have the tools and log ins to moderate everything. Like if somebody starts an abuse thread they can act once they know about it and deal with it. I'd say threads containing some of the crap we've seen lately would be reported, directly to Gizmo if there are still no moderators at all, and dealt with pretty quickly. Like it's not in Gizmo's interests to leave abusive posts/threads on the forum any longer than the time taken to get in there and remove them.

 

Users would only be able to moderate their own thread.

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I think what many are forgetting is that just because diary topics could have option of self-moderation, does not mean that they are off limits to the forum moderators.  So, no, Mar free ability to insult and degrade would not be allowed.  It does not have to be a one or the other situation.

I know that, I was stating that in the mean time any post asking it to stop will be removed while waiting for the report to be reviewed which lately has taken more time than it should have.  The turn about could easily be that the offended person starts a new thread and does the same thing so neither are right in the sense and should be dealt with by Forum Moderation/Devs.

 

Edit:  I'm going to add this in here.  Right now there are some threads a few within the very User Diaries that are directed at me for baiting.

 

One states about investigating and if possible close a matter unless new evidence appears.  This was already on a now deleted thread and there is no reason for that to even be brought up anymore.  Instead it was, I've reported it.

 

We can't sit here and think because what some claim is the only problem that this forum is now so much better but when I seen that post and a few others, I have to say that no the problem isn't solved and it won't be unless it stops.

Edited by Mar Mohan
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I think another thing that should be mentioned which is relevant to what is being said about deleting posts in threads.

In reviewing what can be set in this forum software, a forum moderator can set it so deleted posts are still kept on the server and available for review by them for a determined amount of time.

 

Also I would like to remind people that as Ash pointed out, self moderating rights can be taken away from each individual.

So anyone abusing the use of self moderating will not be able to do so for long.

 

The biggest thing that self moderating should be able to prevent is pages and pages of fighting, which normally includes things no one wants to see in the forum like, insults, slurring, degrading and discrediting, discrimination and outright lies.

This has been going on in this forum for far to long and normally goes unchecked for days to even weeks.

We have threads where there have been page after page of it and it has even transferred across to other threads.

 

This is the main thing we are trying to stop.

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In response to Susan - No you do not.  As I have stated until it's removed that person(s) is/are made to be uncomfortable until it's removed by a Forum Moderator/Dev.  At present it from what this forum looks like as well as previous, it lacks the attention it should have.  Threads and posts that should have been removed aren't, any other forum would have removed them as soon as possible.

I still stand by what I say when I said the forum needs to be shut down and cleaned up, proper moderation set up even if using the tools from the software to help keep it clean and action taken such as warnings, suspensions and/or bans as necessary to show that it won't be tolerated.

 

Adding if this is the best solution to solve a problem, it's really not.  People are still doing it at present to get others to respond.  It's been directed at me over several threads and instead of responding I reported it.  So with self-moderation, to me and what some others have said wouldn't work.  Comments can be deleted by others on their thread, even though reported as it's been shown takes time.  While the comments that were deleted can be put back, that's all well and good but at the same time, what forum moderator/Dev are going to take the time to do it.  So far there hasn't been much done and things are still a mess on this forum and needs to be cleaned up once and for all.  So what if it's down for the clean up time, think of how much better it'll be once it's back.  One of the nice features that the soft has is for key words or phrases to look for, it's a great tool that I don't think is being used.

I'm sure with the money made from the subscriptions, that it covers enough for the costs of the forum server and game servers while offering even a part time position to a couple of people who aren't a part of the game or connected to any of the players to be forum moderators.

Edited by Mar Mohan
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