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Pose Editor?


Gizmo

  

784 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you want it?

    • Yes
      698
    • No
      85


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And again you forget the rule that makes these games "playable": accept-decline...

 

I don't think anyone has forgotten or meant to leave that out, I totally agree, that's just a given and a must.

 

Besides of including all poses in a game client with updates (what I am almost sure they will not do, client will be too heavy and too hard to use) and making a client to client pose transfer and sharing a pose files like we do with a world files, there is actually another options - to approve and include in game only most upvoted poses or only poses, that they personally choose. I don't say that this variations of how to do things is good/bad ones - I just say that it's also possible that they do it this way. We can't know how it will be at this point. 

 

I think I would prefer to see it that way to, I think the game may get to heavy with far to many poses being done otherwise.

Also I forgot to mention, with a client to client system it would likely only be able to be done in our own rooms.

If a client to client system was tried in public rooms, then it would be many clients to many clients and I am not sure that would work.

It is going to be interesting to see what they do, if they do.

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I think these are clearly from 3dxMax, but why would they show these if they are just working on a pose. I guess they making some standard deformation limits on the animation nodes to integrate for the pose editor. So i have some hope to this game after some years again.

 

For Niblette's picture that shows the mouth deformations, it's clearly some user-friendly system implementation where you can adjust mouth deformations with just simple parameters instead of moving 10+ nodes around. So it also makes sense that they doing it for non-developer users.

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Besides of including all poses in a game client with updates (what I am almost sure they will not do, client will be too heavy and too hard to use) and making a client to client pose transfer and sharing a pose files like we do with a world files, there is actually another options - to approve and include in game only most upvoted poses or only poses, that they personally choose. I don't say that this variations of how to do things is good/bad ones - I just say that it's also possible that they do it this way. We can't know how it will be at this point. 

Well, maybe I'm wrong, but we have user worlds and they all not included in game... So in the same way we have the same skeleton and models for all people, so pose is just their position in world and can be loaded on server from client side and not required to be loaded each people in game to see it.

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Well, maybe I'm wrong, but we have user worlds and they all not included in game... So in the same way we have the same skeleton and models for all people, so pose is just their position in world and can be loaded on server from client side and not required to be loaded each people in game to see it.

When you enter some user created room - you actually download it. I am not sure if it's loaded in your memory as a world file itself or it's just some massive of data going in your memory, but the fact is - you load the data. The bigger (data-wise, I am not talking about it's physical size) room - the bigger and longer the load. 

If they will make a client to client pose transfer I see 3 options to make it work:

1. Your PC and network will need to load ALL poses of ALL people when you join some room. If it's 10 people room - it's maybe more or less okay, but if it's 100 people room - it's going to be a fucking hell lol.

2. Your PC and network will need to load some custom pose every time some couple (or three) choose this pose. It can work, but in a big rooms it can make delays and almost permanent pressure on your PC and network, and probably can cause fps drops, freezes, lags.

3. Instead of actual custom made pose - you see some random (or not random) basic animation from the same pose category, and the custom pose itself is visible only by people who actually participate in action. But definitely not all people will enjoy such a way of doing things. A lot of people, when they fuck in public actually WANT others to see how they doing it.

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2f0av14.jpg

 

 

 

I want to clarify that the sexual poses seen in the videos above are videos sent on 3dxchat-telegram, administered by Lisa (Developer) since in one of the photos taken, you can see the writing Lisa 0 xGold and in the lower left, between CharacterEditor and the Weather you see the word "Animator" so I assume that those who sent these videos are Lisa.

I don't think they put videos from other games just to make us nervous, but it will certainly be a new update to Pose Editor.

We hope to arrive soon, and that after this create the ClothesEditor.

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Well, maybe I'm wrong, but we have user worlds and they all not included in game... So in the same way we have the same skeleton and models for all people, so pose is just their position in world and can be loaded on server from client side and not required to be loaded each people in game to see it.

 

Our worlds are client based, meaning when we open our own world we supply the world file to all that go in there, we start what is called a scene in Unity, and very much become the server for a lot of the information that gets sent to anyone who goes in there.

Poses/animations work differently, they are files supplied to us in updates, we all have them in folders in our game folders in our own computers.

For each person to be able to see the animations of all the different people that are in a scene, we need to have that animation file in our computer.

The animation files are supplied to us from who ever opens a room like the room file is.

 

Lets say they bring out the pose editor, and lots of people start making poses.

Lots of people will make poses, some won't, others will go nuts and make multiple poses each day.

So lets say it averages 1 per day per person, there are something like 7,000 players, so that's 7,000 per day, times 30 days = 210,000 poses per month.

I know it sounds a lot, but it could easily end up like that.

So if they were to do things the way they are now, we would need an update with 210,000 poses included, and a really well thought out UI/menu system to be able to use them.

And that is just for the 1st month, lol

 

If it was to work like the room files, where they are supplied by the client, then it would be limited to the pose files the person that opens the room had in their game folders.

For people to be able to see the poses, the file has to be delivered to them somehow, from somewhere.

So for it to work like our rooms all the pose files would still be needed to be in the room owners game folders.

If not it has to then be supplied by the game server, where that server would then have to supply all those files to all the players in each and every room opened and all the public locations.

I think it would be a huge strain on the servers.

 

So what we are talking about is it is very likely to be limited somewhere.

It could be we have a folder in our game folders in our computers where we place user made poses we select and download or create, and when we open a room we supply those files to others in the room, like is done with room files.

Or maybe it could be the devs end up selecting which poses will be included in the game and we get them in updates, where those poses can be used anywhere at any time.

If done that way though, then I think there will only be a small percentage of created poses used.

 

We can only see the poses when we have access to those pose files.

Lets say we all have made poses and you are in a room where there are 100 people and lots are using their own poses.

For us to be able to see those people doing those poses we would need to get access to those pose files

So if they aren't supplied in updates then our computers will be sending and receiving files for every time people change the pose they are using in that room.

The way it works at the moment is we all have the pose files in our game files in our own computers.

But for it to still work that way if a pose editor is done, we would have to have in the hundreds of thousands of pose files in those directories, and could end up in the millions in a matter of months.

And how do we go about selecting the poses we want to use, when there are so many.

So we feel it is very unlikely it will be done that way.

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When you enter some user created room - you actually download it. I am not sure if it's loaded in your memory as a world file itself or it's just some massive of data going in your memory, but the fact is - you load the data. The bigger (data-wise, I am not talking about it's physical size) room - the bigger and longer a load. 

If they will make a client to client pose transfer I see 3 options to make it work:

1. Your PC and network will need to load ALL poses of ALL peoples when you join some room. If it's 10 people room - it's maybe more or less okay, but if it's 100 people room - it's going to be a fucking hell lol.

2. Your PC and network will need to load some custom pose every time some couple (or three) choose this pose. It can work, but in a big rooms it can make delays and almost permanent pressure on your PC and network, and probably can cause fps drops, freezes, lags.

3. Instead of actual custom made pose - you see some random (or not random) basic animation from the same pose category, and the custom pose itself is visible only by people who actually participate in action. But definitely not all people will enjoy such a way of doing things. A lot of people, when they fuck in public actually WANT others to see how they doing it.

Variant 2 looks more possible to me. We are still getting positions of all people in room in real time, so why not to send on client postions of their body parts too? Did you ever play or maybe seen VR Chat game? There is a lot of custom models, animations, effects and such, but there is no delays or loads when new player inters the room. And people there can use VR sets to change position of her body parts in real time. You need load the pose, when you want to use it. But if it's just position of models in world space, you will see it without load the pose, isn't it?

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Our worlds are client based, meaning when we open our own world we sully the world file to all that go in there, we start what is called a scene in Unity, and very much become the server for a lot of the information that gets sent to anyone who goes in there.

Poses/animations work differently, they are files supplied to us in updates, we all have them in folders in our game folders in our own computers.

For each person to be able to see the animations of all the different people that are in a scene, we need to have that animation file in our computer.

The animation files are supplied to us from who ever opens a room like the room file is.

 

Lets say they bring out the pose editor, and lots of people start making poses.

Lots of people will make poses, some won't, others will go nuts and make multiple poses each day.

So lets say it averages 1 per day per person, there are something like 7,000 players, so that's 7,000 per day, times 30 days = 210,000 poses per month.

I know it sounds a lot, but it could easily end up like that.

So if they were to do things the way they are now, we would need an update with 210,000 poses included, and a really well thought out UI/menu system to be able to use them.

And that is just for the 1st month, lol

 

If it was to work like the room files, where they are supplied by the client, then it would be limited to the pose files the person that opens the room had in their game folders.

For people to be able to see the poses, the file has to be delivered to them somehow, from somewhere.

So for it to work like our rooms all the pose files would still be needed to be in the room owners game folders.

If not it has to then be supplied by the game server, where that server would then have to supply all those files to all the players in each and every room opened and all the public locations.

I think it would be a huge strain on the servers.

 

So what we are talking about is it is very likely to be limited somewhere.

It could be we have a folder in our game folders in our computers where we place user made poses we select and download or create, and when we open a room we supply those files to others in the room, like is done with room files.

Or maybe it could be the devs end up selecting which poses will be included in the game and we get them in updates, where those poses can be used anywhere at any time.

If done that way though, then I think there will only be a small percentage of created poses used.

 

We can only see the poses when we have access to those pose files.

Lets say we all have made poses and you are in a room where there are 100 people and lots are using their own poses.

For us to be able to see those people doing those poses we would need to get access to those pose files

So if they aren't supplied in updates then our computers will be sending and receiving files for every time people change the pose they are using in that room.

The way it works at the moment is we all have the pose files in our game files in our own computers.

But for it to still work that way if a pose editor is done, we would have to have in the hundreds of thousands of pose files in those directories, and could end up in the millions in a matter of months.

And how do we go about selecting the poses we want to use, when there are so many.

So we feel it is very unlikely it will be done that way.

You are right, but I'm talk not about files, maybe I'm wrong, but to me pose is just coordinates of body in world space and instruction, how these coordinates change... So shouldn't to be too hard just send those coordinates on clien side, as all online games do.

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You are right, but I'm talk not about files, maybe I'm wrong, but to me pose is just coordinates of body in world space and instruction, how these coordinates change... So shouldn't to be too hard just send those coordinates on clien side, as all online games do.

 

No they are not just coordinates, coordinates will say where people are in the game, but all the poses have animation files.

The animation files are what make our avis bodies move like dance, have sex and even stand idle.

They are not big files, not like the room files can be, but they are still files that we somehow need to get in our computers to be able to see those poses.

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No they are not just coordinates, coordinates will say where people are in the game, but all the poses have animation files.

The animation files are what make our avis bodies move like dance, have sex and even stand idle.

They are not big files, not like the room files can be, but they are still files that we somehow need to get in our computers to be able to see those poses.

Files have to contain some information and this information is coordinations of skeleton parts and how they changes with time, difference is it's coordinates not of whole body, but parts of it. Maybe it works in game different, but I want to say how that could work. If you seen any VR game, there people can cnahge position of her bodies and bodyparts in real time.

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Lets say they bring out the pose editor, and lots of people start making poses.

Lots of people will make poses, some won't, others will go nuts and make multiple poses each day.

So lets say it averages 1 per day per person, there are something like 7,000 players, so that's 7,000 per day, times 30 days = 210,000 poses per month.

I know it sounds a lot, but it could easily end up like that.

So if they were to do things the way they are now, we would need an update with 210,000 poses included, and a really well thought out UI/menu system to be able to use them.

And that is just for the 1st month, lol

 
I think you exaggerating here a lot :P
 
First of all, majority of players will not do a single pose. Even if we talk about worlds - most people either using standard world or some downloaded stuff. And animations is a lot more complicated stuff. So if every 10th player will made some poses - I will be very surprised. Probably it will be less then 10, even 5% of players who will actually do it. And absolute majority of them will not do it on a daily basis. And also, if there is a 7000 players in 3dx - it does not mean everyone of them play everyday. Logging in for 300 xgold daily and actually playing daily - is a big difference. But the problem is... Even if it will be 21,000 or even 2,100 poses every month instead of 210,000 - it's still TOO much. 
 
And I personally just don't want to see some very poorly made poses or poses that were done for trolling purposes. If I don't like the room - I go to other room. But if I don't like the pose - what should I do? Ignore every person with poorly made pose? Meh. 
 
No, giving everyone the ability to use every pose they want everywhere they want - is not a solution, it will be terrible. 
 
I think the best option - is making a votes for poses that should be added in game (because devs are busy enough with game and I don't think they will be ready to spend a time checking all poses).
 
But the votes border to add pose in game or amount of poses to add in game should be separate for different categories. Or we will end up with almost only MF, MFM and FFM poses added cause heterosexual community is most wide in game. But we need MM, FF, MMM, FFF and bdsm poses too.
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Variant 2 looks more possible to me. We are still getting positions of all people in room in real time, so why not to send on client postions of their body parts too? Did you ever play or maybe seen VR Chat game? There is a lot of custom models, animations, effects and such, but there is no delays or loads when new player inters the room. And people there can use VR sets to change position of her body parts in real time. You need load the pose, when you want to use it. But if it's just position of models in world space, you will see it without load the pose, isn't it?

 
Yes, but I am not sure that the 3dxchat is coded same way as VR Chat, even if both games are Unity based. And I am not sure it can be changed at this point without huge amounts of time spent on it.  But well - if it possible to do the way it's done in VR chat without lags - that sounds great. However it's still leaving us with problem of very poorly made poses and trolling poses. But I guess poorly made poses can be tolerated and trolling poses can be made punishable. Tho it's not so easy to prove - when it's just poorly done and when it was done for trolling purposes. 
 
Or some too violent poses. I doubt most of people will enjoy to see, for example, how one person beats other one with fists and kicks them in the head. I mean yes - for someone it can be enjoyable probably, but I don't want to see such an action in a public room. 
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Files have to contain some information and this information is coordinations of skeleton parts and how they changes with time, difference is it's coordinates not of whole body, but parts of it. Maybe it works in game different, but I want to say how that could work. If you seen any VR game, there people can cnahge position of her bodies and bodyparts in real time.

 

Yes exactly, the animation files are like coordinates for all the moves of each part of our avis make.

Each arm bend, finger bend, head twist, all the movements are recorded in a file.

Each frame in the looping animation has all the information needed for the avi to make the moves we want it to make, for every second there is something like 25 frames.

So a file is created to have all that information, an animation file, which is the file needed for you to be able to see your avi, or any avi do the animation.

If it was a still pose, where they didn't move, it could maybe be done the way you are saying, but not an animation.

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And yes XizI, I am worried about lots of poorly made poses to, especially when it comes to dance poses.

It all depends on how easy it is to use the pose editor, if it is made easy, where people can make sex poses in a fairly quick time, then I think a lot more will make poses than do rooms.

If it is fairly easy then I think almost everyone will have a go.

If it is easy there will be some that will make loads of them.

Maybe 1 per person is a high estimate, but I think like 1 per 10 people is a really low estimate.

Either way, as you say, even if it doesn't get to those numbers it will still be to high.

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Yes exactly, the animation files are like coordinates for all the moves of each part of our avis make.

Each arm bend, finger bend, head twist, all the movements are recorded in a file.

Each frame in the looping animation has all the information needed for the avi to make the moves we want it to make, for every second there is something like 25 frames.

So a file is created to have all that information, an animation file, which is the file needed for you to be able to see your avi, or any avi do the animation.

If it was a still pose, where they didn't move, it could maybe be done the way you are saying, but not an animation.

So why server can't send the information to client in real time? As many online games send information to synhronize animations for exmple, or, as I said, make possible to change it in real time, as VR games do.

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So why server can't send the information to client in real time? As many online games send information to synhronize animations for exmple, or, as I said, make possible to change it in real time, as VR games do.

 

I just had a look at VR Chat, it looks like it makes the moves in real time using very basic moves, like it detects hands and feet and makes the avatar move to the coordinates of the hands and feet.

It also looks like it can do mouth movement in real time, it's pretty good and the vids I watched looked like it can be a lot of fun.

Likely they have a very powerful server to.

But I like it, I may even give it a go.

 

But the animations are very basic from what I saw.

3DXChat uses animation files and the animations are mostly high quality.

Hand and finger movements, high frame rate and such.

I don't think you will see anything like they have in VR Chat in 3DXChat.

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I just had a look at VR Chat, it looks like it makes the moves in real time using very basic moves, like it detects hands and feet and makes the avatar move to the coordinates of the hands and feet.

It also looks like it can do mouth movement in real time, it's pretty good and the vids I watched looked like it can be a lot of fun.

Likely they have a very powerful server to.

But I like it, I may even give it a go.

 

But the animations are very basic from what I saw.

3DXChat uses animation files and the animations are mostly high quality.

Hand and finger movements, high frame rate and such.

I don't think you will see anything like they have in VR Chat in 3DXChat.

Maybe, but that possible, and I don't really think, that it's really much information. You said, that it's high quality animations, but in really if you take a look on what really changes in those animations... Thats not really much, in AAA games you could see really high quality animations, that was created with motion caprture, in 3DX it's just few motions, that cycled.

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Maybe, but that possible, and I don't really think, that it's really much information. You said, that it's high quality animations, but in really if you take a look on what really changes in those animations... Thats not really much, in AAA games you could see really high quality animations, that was created with motion caprture, in 3DX it's just few motions, that cycled.

 

Put it this way Anna, people in VR Chat are likely asking why the graphics detail is so low in their game compared to 3DXChat.

Also likely asking why the movement of their avis doesn't look as life like as avis in 3DXChat.

If we can have such high quality graphics and such life like movements why can't they have it in there.

I know the reason, seems you don't.

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Put it this way Anna, people in VR Chat are likely asking why the graphics detail is so low in their game compared to 3DXChat.

Also likely asking why the movement of their avis doesn't look as life like as avis in 3DXChat.

If we can have such high quality graphics and such life like movements why can't they have it in there.

I know the reason, seems you don't.

I know it too... That because of lack money and resources, VR Chat as 3DXchat are not some AAA games. I'm talking not about that though, I speak about possibility and didn't see arguments why it's impossible to do, besides of, that existed system based on files doesn't work like that. If you know more, than me, I would like, if you explain to me, why it's technically impossible to do in way, as I said. Speaking about animations in VRchat and their creating:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOhY921XmH0

Maybe it's not so complicated, as in 3DXchat, but works fine, and I don't see the reason, why that impossible to improve it.

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Well looks like that's the tool they are likely to be incorporating into 3DXChat, Very animation, I didn't even know that existed.

But you may have seen some of us talking about it being likely they have found a tool in the Unity assets store.

I would say it is very much likely we will see a pose editor in 3DXChat, not to far away either.

 

Ok, when making a game you have a limit to what you can do because of things like server power, clients computer power and band width.

At the moment you cant even produce a game that can have really high detail graphics and have scenes where more than say 5 or 6 people are in them, you will just get lots of lag.

Same goes for things like what you are able to supply in the game.

If you have to many animations being called for with a high level graphics detail in the game, you will get lag.

Animation files are not big, as you have said and I think I also said.

But it is how many times they have to be sent and received, then processed.

If you are supplying a real time system like in VR Chat then it can be demanding on systems and bandwidth.

Each second of an animation is around about 50 to 75kb, So a 5 second animation will be say around 300kb.

If you have 50 people in the room then that 300kb has to be sent to each of them, 15mb in total.

And that is just one animation, what if all 50 had different animations and all used them.

Although they are not big files you have to be careful how you use them, as it can make it very demanding on systems and bandwidth.

So if you have a game like that at the moment, then you have very little room left for detailed graphics, which we all know is demanding in itself.

And if you have a game with detailed graphics, you have very little room left for things like real time animations.

It has very little to do with money.

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Thanks to AnnaKat I think we now know the pose creator tool they are likely to be incorporating into 3DXChat.

And it looks like a really good one, will be easy to create animations, and could even be easy to do dances with.

Have a look at the video AnnaKat has linked to, you can see basically how it can work.

And I now do think those samples the devs have shown us are done in Unity and we can really expect a decent pose editor.

How they are going to do it so we can use the poses we create we still don't know.

I am pretty sure they will have to limit it in some way or we will get to much lag.

But I think it is going to be a real fun tool.

 

https://assetstore.unity.com/packages/tools/animation/very-animation-96826

 

 

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Well, about performance. As I know, there is video card, that responsible of textures, graphical effects and such. And processor, that responsible of physic and skeleton of models, objects, AI and such. So if you look in 3DXchat, you can see, that video card usage is max, but fps is low (beacause of textures and resolution) but processor usage very low. As I know, video card is not used to play animations, video card used to draw textures and effects. But as you can see almost all perfomance in 3DXchat stops on video card, because here is no real physic, no AI and NPC.

This screenshot I made in room with 75 people on high graphic preset.

243XFEM.png

So I can imaganate just file based system with poses, that can be used. Each time, when someone in room starts custom pose (pose have to be alredy loaded on server for that, obviously, and got unique ID, as our characters have) every player in room loading the pose from server automatically, to see it. As you said, it's about 15 Mb for player, if each player from 50 using one different custom pose (though in really, I don't think, that you ever seen how each player in room use some animation and if it's sex animation, there is always one animation for two people). Thats not so big, cache of browser can be a lot bigger for example and it can be cleared each time you left the room, or maybe close the game. Such system obviously requires more server performance, but nothing impossible, I'm sure.

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A sex pose is actually 2 animations synchronized, one for each.

Yes in most cases the CPU on your computer in 3DXChat isn't working that hard, but it depends on your system as well.

Also If it is your room then it can be very hard as when you open a room your computer very much becomes the server, your computer supplies much of the information for everyone that is in there.

Plus also you forgot about the main thing, band width.

Lets say you open a room, and your Internet connection is 25mbs, then your up side of your Internet connection is likely around 5 to 10 mbs.

Mbs when talked in band width is not megabites, it is megabits, you need 8 megabits a second to get 1 megabite a second.

So it doesn't take much to start over loading the out stream of information from your computer.

When you open a room your computer has to supply all the information to everyone in your room with what is going on in there with very little band width to do so.

You start loading that up with loads of changing animations and everyone in there will experience lag.

 

I think what they will likely do is have it so we click on other players, in the UI that comes up there will be something like, "see player poses".

Then when we click on that we will be able to see their poses/animations, if we don't they will likely look like they are idle unless they are using one of the standard game poses.

For sex and other interacting poses we will likely get a request from players, if we accept we then get the animation sent to us and both players will be able to see it, but again I think for others to see it they will have to click the "see player poses".

It's just my opinion and a way I can see that would make it usable, but I cannot see them just making it so all the poses made are seen without restrictions.

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A sex pose is actually 2 animations synchronized, one for each.

Yes in most cases the CPU on your computer in 3DXChat isn't working that hard, but it depends on your system as well.

Also If it is your room then it can be very hard as when you open a room your computer very much becomes the server, your computer supplies much of the information for everyone that is in there.

Plus also you forgot about the main thing, band width.

Lets say you open a room, and your Internet connection is 25mbs, then your up side of your Internet connection is likely around 5 to 10 mbs.

Mbs when talked in band width is not megabites, it is megabits, you need 8 megabits a second to get 1 megabite a second.

So it doesn't take much to start over loading the out stream of information from your computer.

When you open a room your computer has to supply all the information to everyone in your room with what is going on in there with very little band width to do so.

You start loading that up with loads of changing animations and everyone in there will experience lag.

 

I think what they will likely do is have it so we click on other players, in the UI that comes up there will be something like, "see player poses".

Then when we click on that we will be able to see their poses/animations, if we don't they will likely look like they are idle unless they are using one of the standard game poses.

For sex and other interacting poses we will likely get a request from players, if we accept we then get the animation sent to us and both players will be able to see it, but again I think for others to see it they will have to click the "see player poses".

It's just my opinion and a way I can see that would make it usable, but I cannot see them just making it so all the poses made are seen without restrictions.

Yes, 2 animations, but one file, need to send the file for each player, but only one file for two players, as they use same pose, instead of each player will use own animation and it will be one file for one player.
 
I know about band width, but I don't think, that it's too bad, if you will see custom pose with few seconds delay. Drawing an analogy with VRchat again, there is not only custom animations, but custom characters, effects, sounds, almost all. And there is no problem with that, when someone enters the room, all players load all data about this character and thats few seconds delay, before other players can see it, same with 3DXchat, as we are loading user rooms, when entering them.
 
You want to say, that if you become host of room, they are using your pc, as server? I don't really sure about that... And how they use it, what information your pc working on, when you are host? No matter what it is, it always can be on server side, I'm sure.
 
But anyway, I think, that add string like "see player poses" in settings would be best solution, because let players decide, want they see it or not, it's always the best solution.
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