Girls who are guys who are girls who are guys who are...

[Guest Ciera]

There isn't a simple answer to this - If you aren't going to get close to someone then Vlad is right, it doesn't really matter too much. I still maintain that both parties should be honest with each other if they get close in game. The emotions are real, yeah. I'd go a little further and say that to get close to someone in game can cause problems with real life relationships.

 

I still maintain that over time people reveal their true selves, even in the make believe world of 3dx. I believe it's something to do with attitudes and opinions, that's why the feminist thing cropped up here just like it so often does in other threads. That does not mean to say that you can tell whether an avi is male or female controlled by any sexist opinons they mat express. It isn't that simple. The hints are subtle, I've spoken to several people who've expressed a vague unease about someone they were getting close to. A need to check up on them rl wise in some way. To me that is the indicator - it comes back to 'if in doubt don't'. Having said that a raving MCP would have a lot of difficulty convincing anybody about being a woman, no matter how sexy their avi might be.

 

With recent news items that have appeared in the UK press it could be said that a sense of entitlement is predominantly a male preserve. It's worth thinking about, even though it comes with the same provisos as any other stereotype. I could go off on one here about the 'glitter boob woman' in New Zealand or the Presidents Club scandal in the UK but won't other than to say that both reflect this sense of entitlement.

 

What about identifying a woman with a male avi - I'd say it'd be much more difficult. Many men have opinions and attitudes that could easily be attributed to women. Some women have opinions and attitudes that coul dbe deemed male. Although stereotypes tend to reflect reality, talking about cars or fishing probably isn't reliable either - many men aren't in to either and some women are.

 

In all seriousness - we make decisions based on a wealth of information. I doubt there's ever one thing that rings out and says 'bloke' or 'woman'. I believe we should trust our instincts more, that's it really.

[Sage Stoner]

With recent news items that have appeared in the UK press it could be said that a sense of entitlement is predominantly a male preserve. It's worth thinking about, even though it comes with the same provisos as any other stereotype. I could go off on one here about the 'glitter boob woman' in New Zealand or the Presidents Club scandal in the UK but won't other than to say that both reflect this sense of entitlement.

 

This is only tangentially related to the topic here, but it ties together rather loosely.

 

I was rather fascinated by the controversy over the recent Cathy Newman's interview with Jordan Peterson, which I first became aware of from postings and comments on Imgur predominantly from males who seem to think that this interview alone has settled the "Feminism Question" for all time. 

 

I knew nothing of Jordan Peterson before this and actually watched a lecture of his on YouTube to get an idea not just of who he was and why the interview went sideways as badly as it did but why so many male Imgur users seemed to feel that this interview vindicated their feelings about women. 

 

I have to say that Jordan Peterson appears to an intelligent and articulate person who feels that there is a vast body of young people (not just males) who fail to learn the skills necessary to self-actualize in life and need help acquiring those skills. On the other hand, having watched a bit of what he has to say, a lot of it seems questionable to me. But he wasn't overtly anti-feminist in the things I saw, which makes me wonder if the anti-feminist snark in the comments I referred to wasn't coming more from people who dislike what Cathy Newman has to say than from those who agree with Jordan Peterson.   

 

In any case, as the sentencing of Larry Nassar demonstrates quite clearly, there is still a lot of "entitlement" that needs to be exposed for what it is and burned to the ground. Coincidentally, I was involved in a mostly facetious discussion in-game today about whether there is any need for men and woman to have separate lavatories in public places and why can't we all just use unisex lavatories. Of course, it was not that long ago that co-education was controversial, either. 

 

In any case, although there are probably many people who don't see any relation between "entitlement" and the topic of this thread, I would suggest that anyone wanting to know or thinking that they have a right to know the sex of another player is in fact expressing "entitlement."

[Togo]

I have no idea what Milan said because he is on block list, but I assume he was being a troll again. It is public record here in New Zealand that on average a woman is paid 30% less for the same job. HERE (this is not the USA) it is illegal to discriminate based on gender, but it IS NOT illegal to pay a woman less. The general thinking here is , you offer a salary for a job, if they don't like it they can go someplace else. It has been proven men are offered more, (even with more money going out it is still only a stuffed shirt British boys club here, business would rather hire men even if it costs more)  but there is no law against that, only one on discrimination in hiring practices, and they never really get anywhere with that (company is rich you aren't)

 

I take advantage of this while I'm young. I may strip naked and dance for men but I know I will have a job for at least the next 20 years. It pays enough (especially when rich bastards are there) that I can sock quite a bit of dosh away, and my wife does the same thing we will be set in 20.

All due to the fact that men love to see naked women showing their boobs and vagina on a stage, and we make them pay for it.

http://women.govt.nz/work-skills/income/gender-pay-gap

 

Seems the NZ government doesn't have the same numbers.

[Guest Mulan]

http://women.govt.nz/work-skills/income/gender-pay-gap

 

Seems the NZ government doesn't have the same numbers.

Even back in 1998, the gap was never as high as 30%. And as the report says, New Zealand law makes discrimination illegal like the rest of the Western world. As I have been saying over and over, the gap is explained by a number of things like childbirth, like different choices in career, like the way men are generally more likely to take more risks in the work place and ask for promotions and pay rises. It is why homosexual couples tender to earn more than straight couples, probably because they are much less likely to start a family.

 

Obviously a gap of 9.8% is still to high. But to lower that gap we need to focus on what can actually fix it and stop pulling numbers out of our butt like 30% and blaming straight white men for all of life’s problems.

[Sage Stoner]

Even back in 1998, the gap was never as high as 30%. And as the report says, New Zealand law makes discrimination illegal like the rest of the Western world. As I have been saying over and over, the gap is explained by a number of things like childbirth, like different choices in career, like the way men are generally more likely to take more risks in the work place and ask for promotions and pay rises. It is why homosexual couples tender to earn more than straight couples, probably because they are much less likely to start a family.

 

You are conflating two different things: lifetime earnings  and  equal pay for equal work. Moreover, the factors you mentioned do not so much explain the gap as they rationalize it.

 

By the way, the statement that homosexual couples tend to earn more than straight couples is misleading. That might be true in the US, where gay married couples tend to earn more than either lesbian or heterosexual married couples, but same-sex married couples in the US also tend to live in metropolitan areas where wages are higher anyway. In fact, the geographical factor is probably the dominant one here, especially since if we compare the income of heterosexual married couples who have no children with those who do, the couples with no children probably tend to earn more, too.   

 

 

 

Obviously a gap of 9.8% is still to high. But to lower that gap we need to focus on what can actually fix it and stop pulling numbers out of our butt like 30% and blaming straight white men for all of life’s problems.

 

Remind me again who in this thread was blaming straight white men for all life's problems. Or was that just another red herring you thought you would throw out there and hope that no one was paying attention? 

[Guest Ciera]

Mulan worries that strong, confident women with minds of their own are delibertly trying to castrate him.

 

/me searches for nail scissors and copy of 'Genito-urinary Surgery for Dummies'.

 

I suppose I have to agree, though, that even 10% salary difference is too much. In today's Sunday Tiimes there's an article about a high flyer woman trader and her stay at home husband. She's quoted as saying that her male colleagues get as much as 100% more in bonuses, despite her being among the top few traders. Curious that.

 

Seriously though, Mulan's opinions and attitudes are the kind of thing that suggests 'bloke' in game. He's not alone round here, sadly.

[Guest Ciera]

Thanks to Sagie for finding USA based examples comparable to my two. Larry Nassar, to have abused so many women over such a long period of time, must have felt he was entitled to do it.

 

I disagree that to need to know who someone is rl demonstrates entitlement - well maybe to expect it does, but aren't relationships based on trust. Isn't that where 3dx and rl come together?

[Sage Stoner]

I disagree that to need to know who someone is rl demonstrates entitlement - well maybe to expect it does, but aren't relationships based on trust. Isn't that where 3dx and rl come together?

 

Point taken. If I were to rewrite that, I might say that wanting to know or thinking you have the right to know without first establishing a relationship with that person is an expression of entitlement.

[AllisonStarlove]

Wasn't this topic about girls that are guys who are girls who are guys? But thanks all for shedding light on how unfair the business word is to woman. Although I have a university degree, I'm glad I'm not part it. I will continue shaking the male money tree with my boobs and vagina on stage

[Twiggy]

Point taken. If I were to rewrite that, I might say that wanting to know or thinking you have the right to know without first establishing a relationship with that person is an expression of entitlement.

 

There is a lot more to it than just relationships Sage, I had put my trust in people with just friendships where it had an effect, unless you are referring to friendships as a kind of relationship to.

We all get into conversations in the game, where the conversation is about real life and our opinions on different things.

I think back to the amount of times I have taken in peoples opinions where I thought I was getting the opinion from another women which I found out much later to be a guy.

So we either have to just not take any womans opinion seriously in the game or play the game strictly as just a game, which I think is almost impossible to do.

We all make friends in 3DX, lots of people have said it is the reason we stay and I agree with that.

When we get to be comfortable with these friends we chat, and often about things outside the game, very few I have found not to.

Some do just focus on things around the game, but that doesn't leave a lot to talk about.

I would go as far as saying that 90% of the people I got to be friends with talked about real life things, things they do and wanting to know about things I do.

Also would voice their opinions on things and listen to mine.

Not only is it something a bit hard to deal with when you find out that a friend you have had for years in the game who would sware she was a women in rl, turned out to be a guy.

It gets to a point where you just have doubt on almost all the female avis in the game and the willingness to have decent conversations with them fades.

You may think it shouldn't matter, but to me and I know a lot of others it does, having been told by so many that it does.

Plus as I have said so many times in these forums, I know that same doubt is put on me as well and is something I have to endure in the game so guys can play as females.

You talk about entitlement, well it is also an expression of entitlement for the guys that play as females who don't let people know to think that they are entitled to do so.

 

If you are a guy and you want to play as a female in the game that's fine, but don't get involved in conversations pretending to be a female in rl and give opinions on things.

Especially when it comes to sex, where I have been involved in so many discussions on sex in local and group chats where I have ended up thinking this is just so unfair.

At best us real females are getting a 1 in 5  chance to put our opinions across with the other 4 out of 5 being guys giving opinions pretending to be females.

 

Now you can all call it just a game if you want, when it suites you to do so as I have noticed when it comes to other topics many who do will then say it is not just a game.

You can say it's the Internet and we have to accept it.

But the truth is guys playing as girls in the game in that way takes away from others that don't, it means we have to put up with how it effects our game so they can do so and in my opinion is selfish on their part.

[Guest Mulan]

Remind me again who in this thread was blaming straight white men for all life's problems. Or was that just another red herring you thought you would throw out there and hope that no one was paying attention? 

There has been a steady stream of topics over the past few months that blame men for a lot of things in 3DX. I believe it was Alison who started talking about a 30% pay gap and discrimination, to which Togo has provided a link which shows that it is blatantly false. The same people keep bringing up the pay gap, discrimination and sexual assault.

 

Wasn't this topic about girls that are guys who are girls who are guys? But thanks all for shedding light on how unfair the business word is to woman. Although I have a university degree, I'm glad I'm not part it. I will continue shaking the male money tree with my boobs and vagina on stage

Well, it was you brought it up in the first place. It just goes to show how useless university degrees are these days and I am glad you are putting it to use by being a female stereotype, you go girl.

[Guest Ciera]

@Mulan - I really don't think you actually read what Alli was saying - she was saying that maybe you should try living as a woman for a while and actually discover for yourself what women put up with, the less pay thing being just one example.

 

There's one post, I can't remember who and I don't want to go back looking, that suggested that men play as women because they think they're more likely to get a shag. I suppose this may be true seeing as there are so few women in 3dx. What is more worrying is that blokes playing as blokes seem to think that women behave the way these men playing as women do. Individually we play the way we do because we are who we are, which is usually very different. It is infuriating to have to deal with someone who thinks that just because you're sitting on the beach wearing a bikini you're going to shag any bloke who passes by. Does this mean that any female avi who accepts this kind of invitation is a bloke, probably but not neccessarily so. SImilarly with those female avis who come on like that as well, they are probably blokes. If you said they were you'd be right most of the time.

 

It comes back to attitudes and opinions, you may play as whatever gender you like but sooner or later you'll reveal your true self. The gender of the person behind the avi is revealed in so many different ways.

[Guest Mulan]

What women put up with? Like what exactly?

 

I don’t see many women joining up the army, working on oil rigs, doing all these dangerous jobs. Look at all these great things like the internet, electricity, clean running water to every household, roads, buildings, historical monuments, and every other thing we take for granted that keeps modern society functional - all built by men - you’re welcome.

 

Let’s talk about men’s problems. Men are much more likely to commit suicide than a woman. The life expectancy of a man is shorter. During a divorce, the woman is much more likely to get custody over a child. 50% of domestic abuse cases are against men, but only 1 shelter in the whole of the US will take a male victim. When they evacuate, it is the children first, then the women, then lastly the men. Nearly all of work place fatalities are men.

[Briana]

What women put up with? Like what exactly?

 

I don’t see many women joining up the army,.

 

 

Not really the case in China, talk for your country okay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW9yDgI2o8w

And also ,I'm tired to hear both gender fighting each othershttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RJNOT4RJrQ

[Guest Mulan]

Like China and North Korea where they don’t really have a choice?

[Guest Ciera]

@Mulan - creepy old bastards with wondering palms, just to name one.

We’re going off topic so I’d say Mulan’s female avi would say ‘bloke’ Loud and clear.

[Niblette]

I’d say Mulan’s female avi would say ‘bloke’ Loud and clear.

 

I have seen her profile in game and you would be wrong I think.

[Guest Ciera]

I didn't see his profile, but I assume that he expressed opinions contrary to his own when in game playing as a woman. If he stayed true to his opinions I suggest most people would rumble him pdq.

[Sage Stoner]

I don’t see many women joining up the army, working on oil rigs, doing all these dangerous jobs. Look at all these great things like the internet, electricity, clean running water to every household, roads, buildings, historical monuments, and every other thing we take for granted that keeps modern society functional - all built by men - you’re welcome.

 

You know, you're entitled to your opinion, but when you start writing stuff that is as factually incorrect as this, it just undermines what little value your posts have. 

 

Even if we accept your assertion that those things were all "built by men," then it follows that they also built the social order that required women to stay home while they were at work. So why don't you just come out and claim that human civilization was built by men? That would make just as little sense as anything else you've said and settle the argument once and for all. 

 

Oh, but that's a pretty snarky catch-22, huh?  Because saying that would pretty much validate all the things those bad feminists have been saying about the hardworking heterosexual white men. 

 

15-trailblazing-women-and-how-they-made-the-internet-248532/

https://www.autostraddle.com/15-trailblazing-women-and-how-they-made-the-internet-248532/

 

famous-female-electrical-engineers

https://www.ranker.com/list/famous-female-electrical-engineers/reference

 

Famous-female-civil-engineers

https://www.ranker.com/list/famous-female-civil-engineers/reference

 

the-10-most-overlooked-women-in-architecture-history

https://www.archdaily.com/341730/the-10-most-overlooked-women-in-architecture-history

[Guest ameliaUK]

Let’s talk about men’s problems. Men are much more likely to commit suicide than a woman. The life expectancy of a man is shorter. During a divorce, the woman is much more likely to get custody over a child. 50% of domestic abuse cases are against men, but only 1 shelter in the whole of the US will take a male victim. When they evacuate, it is the children first, then the women, then lastly the men. Nearly all of work place fatalities are men.

 

lol as this was my thread which has now been massively diverted, I think it's time I got involved!

 

So you want to talk about numbers and stats do you Mulan to prove how hard-done-by men are? Ok, well I dug some up about women too, especially for you:

 

- 1% of titled land in the world is owned by women.

- 1440 women die every day in the world in childbirth

- 700 million women worldwide don't have basic sanitation, food, shelter, water or education - that's nearly DOUBLE the number of men in the same situation

- 67% of illliterate adults are women

- nearly twice as many girls don't attend school as boys (85m v 45m)

- only 5% of women are partners in law firms in the UK and only 3% are CEOs in the EU

 

I'm not saying there's not inequality the other way - ofc there is, some - but what most people fail to appreciate is (and I think this point may have been made already), that feminists don't actually want all things for women, they simply want equality. Is that really too much to ask?

 

Anyway, this wasn't the point of my original post lol, but I can't resist it when someone misuses stats to further their own story.

[JessicaX]

Not sure where Mulan got those stats.. 50% of domestic abuse cases are against men? Not even a tiny bit close even in the Twilight Zone world.
Maybe on breitbart.com. certainly not reality.  The data i see over and over is 1 in 4 women experience domestic abuse... 1 in 18 men.  I'm not sure how that translates into 50% of domestic abuse cases are against men. That's laughable at best and goes to show why we have a serious issue of misinformation in this world.  

[Guest ameliaUK]

Not sure where Mulan got those stats.. 50% of domestic abuse cases are against men? Not even a tiny bit close even in the Twilight Zone world.

Maybe on breitbart.com. certainly not reality.  The data i see over and over is 1 in 4 women experience domestic abuse... 1 in 18 men.  I'm not sure how that translates into 50% of domestic abuse cases are against men. That's laughable at best and goes to show why we have a serious issue of misinformation in this world.  

 

38 per cent of all murders of women worldwide are committed by a woman's intimate partner.

 

Can't help wondering what the reverse stat is...

[Niblette]

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/07/21/538518569/cdc-half-of-all-female-murder-victims-are-killed-by-intimate-partners

 

Well it says in that link that ~7% of men are killed by their intimate partner. Higher then I would have though really but still...

 

What was this thread about again? 

[JessicaX]

This thread has it all! 

[Briana]

No, this tune is missing:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RAQXg0IdfI