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Suggestion: Maybe Don't Encourage Transphobia


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On 11/16/2021 at 4:04 AM, OzmaAsimov said:

@Gizmo@Lisa
I am...stunned. I was shocked when I found a thread titled "Shemales" started by Lisa. But it was started years ago, and I could hope that the devs had learned better by now. Then again, in-game poses between t-girls and men are still labeled "bisexual", so clearly we have work to do on learning how nuance in language matters.

Nobody's forcing you to wear it, so, just leave it alone, if people want to wear it, that's up to them, maybe that's what somebody's fantasy is, and everybody's free to express and enjoy their fantasy here, stop trying to dictate everyone to adapt to the language you're comfortable with. This ain't America. The world doesn't revolve around your feelings.

 

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Yeah, the world is a lot different than how it was 100 year ago, you would be surprised of some inventions last 3 years  regarding everything, I mean who would of thought a unity engine sex game with hardly any sex poses/content back then, would someday catch up in technology and have the option to react with pleasure toys? lol.

The thought of people seeing things like "Futa" as the real form of transwomen is mindblowing me, when futa was never anything than an exaggerated fanfiction form, and many people still to this day think that is the actual transwomen.

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6 hours ago, Derai said:

Counter question. Why have gendered restrooms at all?

Why not just have a single restroom with closed stalls? Nobody gets excluded. 

You are reaching with that argument. 
Because you draw a parallel between Trans people and sex offenders. Intended or not.

The field I work in. This would not work and would cause trouble. At least with gendered bathrooms there is some separation from those who would take advantage of others.

Also the construction cost to prevent that sort of thing would have to come from somewhere and I doubt businesses will be ready and willing to front the cost of high security bathrooms.

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3 hours ago, Cersei said:

More power to you hun, enjoy! Damn snowflakes have to ruin everything for everyone.

I know, right? You try to educate people about a real world issue that affects (and sometimes ends) the lives of a marginalized group of people, and the snowflakes get all bent out of shape about something that barely impacts them at all beyond the ability to wear a single print on their panties among dozens of other prints. It's wild.

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2 minutes ago, OzmaAsimov said:

I know, right? You try to educate people about a real world issue that affects (and sometimes ends) the lives of a marginalized group of people, and the snowflakes get all bent out of shape about something that barely impacts them at all beyond the ability to wear a single print on their panties among dozens of other prints. It's wild.

Yeah it's quite obvious that you try your best to "educate" people based on your personal ideologies.

well people should also agree that this is an international community and they can't pretend that whatever is normal or accepted in someone's local environment is the same on the entire planet. We are here from many nations and cultural backgrounds. So probably we should take it easy in lecturing eachother. Especially when it comes to stuff like religion, identity politics, and ideologies around sex and gender. It's like a muslim trying to educate a christian about his religious rights. 

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5 hours ago, Laina said:

Now to the actual original topic at hand - @OzmaAsimov dear - you know I love and respect you.  We can agree on many topics and disagree on some of the same.  I do regret to say I am not upset about the use of the "I'ts a trap" print with the exception of the grammatical error which drives me absolutely insane.  I actually thought it was cute.

I do hate to see violence against transgender people - but I hate to see violence against people in general.  There's a reason I will not visit my good friend in the UAE.

I appreciate that you're adamant in defending a topic you're no doubt very involved in.  I just find myself in a position with a little more fluidity.  A good friend of mine was quite transphobic, citing him he said "While I generally have left views transgenders is one section where I lean far right."  He had the same notion as to his little girl being in a bathroom with 'strange' people.  He even went so far as to say "I don't know if you're the best or the worst trap I've ever met" referring to me.  I handled the situation much like you'd imagine I did - I didn't yell at him, or berate him, but rather reacted with a degree of patience and understanding.  In the time since he made that statement, roughly a year ago, he's learned much about transgender people simply by engaging me in conversation.  He's not transphobic anymore, but he still possesses very much the same diligence with sending his young daughter into the bathroom with strange people.

It's not a bad thing to be wary.  Being too wary and not living is.  Being offended and responding patiently and respectfully isn't a bad thing.  Letting your offense breathe life into being offensive back is.

 

Bottom line, we're all fuckin' humans here, right?  Let's agree to disagree, and treat each other as such.

As always,

     -L

Of course I adore you too, sweetie. I know we probably won't see eye to eye on this. I've always appreciated your measured responses to any issue you lend your voice to. It's true that I have little patience for those that treat this as an opportunity to attack. Those people, I'm just going to bat away their nonsense with facts. But please take note of how I've handled anyone that has engaged me honestly and respectfully. I came to the table initially with courtesy. A deep concern, yes, but I was respectful. Many people chose to take it as an attack, and they went on the offensive. But anyone that comes back with courtesy, I will meet them with the same, even if they've been offensive previously. I cite my last response to Diana Prince as evidence, when she was asking for information about the myths about trans people.

You had a year to work on your friend and help him come around on his transphobic views. That's very different from the relationship I have with most of the people here. I'm not dedicating that kind of time or effort to someone who has come in here swinging their fists, mocking, and showing no willingness to learning something new. But for those that do engage honestly and demonstrate that willingness, even if they're never going to see things my way, I will meet them in the middle and have that discussion. And yeah, if someone were to do that, I might even learn something new. But so far...well, you've seen the thread.

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2 minutes ago, Tsela said:

Yeah it's quite obvious that you try your best to "educate" people based on your personal ideologies.

well people should also agree that this is an international community and they can't pretend that whatever is normal or accepted in someone's local environment is the same on the entire planet. We are here from many nations and cultural backgrounds. So probably we should take it easy in lecturing eachother. Especially when it comes to stuff like religion, identity politics, and ideologies around sex and gender. It's like a muslim trying to educate a christian about his religious rights. 

Interesting. So, real world facts like transgender murder rates in the U.S. and Christian persecution in Egypt now equal personal ideologies? What a strange reality you must live in.

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15 minutes ago, OzmaAsimov said:

Interesting. So, real world facts like transgender murder rates in the U.S. and Christian persecution in Egypt now equal personal ideologies? What a strange reality you must live in.

no, facts are not ideologies. Believing that men are women depending on their feelings, that's an ideology, yes. Not actual fact, but a belief system.

Also when we come to murder rates, US is around the 1st place among every single western country, probably many things should be fixed there because not only trans people are harmed. I mean you have more crime in a single city than in half of entire Europe. and that's not the problem of transgender people only

Edited by Tsela
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1 minute ago, Tsela said:

no, facts are not ideologies. Believing that men are women depending on their feelings, that's an ideology, yes. Not actual fact, but a belief system.

Also when we come to murder rates, US is around the 1st place among every single western country, probably many things should be fixed there because not only trans people are harmed. 

Guess it's time for more facts, since you're going to continue to misrepresent. Transgender people do not "believe" we are our expressed gender. We are our expressed gender, just as you are, and that is a fact. This is not only supported by history (as transgender people have existed through human history), but also by modern science. Not a belief system...fact, supported by hard evidence.

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2 minutes ago, Tsela said:

no, facts are not ideologies. Believing that men are women depending on their feelings, that's an ideology, yes. Not actual fact, but a belief system.

Also when we come to murder rates, US is around the 1st place among every single western country, probably many things should be fixed there because not only trans people are harmed. 

I mean - at the end of the day someone can call me whatever they damn well please.  I know what I am, I have comfort in knowing that I have rights, and I know how to separate my rights from my privileges.  I can be offended by something and not put much stock in it.  If I'm physically attacked over it, I will respond in kind - vehemently.

I'm on an opposing side to many people in the same situation as me - but I still embrace them with open arms.  I honestly believe that most of you here - trying to actually have a civil discourse are legitimately good people.  And that you would come to the defense of someone if they were actually harmed.

I love diversity, and I certainly won't shy away from adversity.  It's when the diversity results in ridiculous, unnecessary loss of life that the adversity needs to put in check.  Religious crusades, apartheid, when can people just stop and take comfort in their being different from one another?

As much as I love to be around like minded people, you have to throw in a divergent thinker in there somewhere - if you readily cast out something that makes you uncomfortable or that disagrees in the slightest, you close your mind, and eventually, grow complacent to the factuality that there are always going to be differences, and then it repeats the same damn cycle - one group assaults another group over their differences.

That's an ideology I could get behind.

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14 minutes ago, Tsela said:

Also when we come to murder rates, US is around the 1st place among every single western country, probably many things should be fixed there because not only trans people are harmed. 

And since we're on the subject of facts...you're wrong again. The United States isn't even in the top 10 when it comes to murder rates. According to worldpopulationreview.com, the US rates 76th in the world. worldatlas.com places it at 89th. Might want to start checking your sources before making unfounded claims.

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7 minutes ago, OzmaAsimov said:

And since we're on the subject of facts...you're wrong again. The United States isn't even in the top 10 when it comes to murder rates. According to worldpopulationreview.com, the US rates 76th in the world. worldatlas.com places it at 89th. Might want to start checking your sources before making unfounded claims.

I have to eat my own words here @Tsela. You did say "western" countries. While I don't see why that caveat is necessary, I did call you out unfairly and I apologize for that.

Edited by OzmaAsimov
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well my point was that I can understand that especially a person who has a different view, acts or stands out in any way is more exposed to dangers in environments where it's already dangerous to begin with. Surely there are many things to fix there because it's generally not good for anyone. I find it awful to be exposed to dangers regardless of who has what beliefs, religion, or personal views about gender.

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5 minutes ago, Tsela said:

well my point was that I can understand that especially a person who has a different view, acts or stands out in any way is more exposed to dangers in environments where it's already dangerous to begin with. Surely there are many things to fix there because it's generally not good for anyone. I find it awful to be exposed to dangers regardless of who has what beliefs, religion, or personal views about gender.

You could argue though that the onus isn’t on the person standing out. 
Or even on whatever makes them stand out. 
 

But rather the fact that we as a society still suffer from the ‘Other’ problem.

Meaning that everything that falls outside of the narrow band we call ‘normal’ is bad, or at least a negative. 
Anything unknown becomes ‘the Other’ and is feared or ostracized. 
 

In an ideal world, nobody would ‘stand out’ in a negative way like now. 
But we ain’t there yet. Sadly. 

Edited by Derai
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Just now, Tsela said:

well my point was that I can understand that especially a person who has a different view, acts or stands out in any way is more exposed to dangers in environments where it's already dangerous to begin with. Surely there are many things to fix there because it's generally not good for anyone. I find it awful to be exposed to dangers regardless of who has what beliefs, religion, or personal views about gender.

Well, I can certainly agree with that notion.  It's far more likely to be a violent crime against someone who 'stands out' when there's more violent crime in the area to begin with, sure.  I'm not gonna try to decrypt that statement, though, because there's gonna be so many ifs/ands/buts regarding rights, religions, general opinion, etc.

I live in a relatively 'safe' city in the U.S. - but it's transgender views are kind of dated (as most of it's residents are quite old).  I'd be just as likely to attacked for my wallet regardless of what I was perceived as at the moment than specifically targeted for being transgender.  It's going to become a game of "where/what/how" in that regard.

The principle difference in my end is that where I'm located, I have the option and confidence to defend myself - that's not the case everywhere.

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5 minutes ago, Tsela said:

well my point was that I can understand that especially a person who has a different view, acts or stands out in any way is more exposed to dangers in environments where it's already dangerous to begin with. Surely there are many things to fix there because it's generally not good for anyone. I find it awful to be exposed to dangers regardless of who has what beliefs, religion, or personal views about gender.

I agree with you. It's bad for everyone. But when it's so much worse for one particular group (transgender people were four times more likely than cis gender people to be victims of violent crime in 2017-2018; I don't have the specific murder stats on hand at the moment), clearly there is another issue on top of the violence issue to be concerned about. Reducing overall violence would be great, but it won't fix the problem that transgender people are experience more violence than cis people. That problem is rooted in transphobia, which requires different solutions.

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Just now, OzmaAsimov said:

I agree with you. It's bad for everyone. But when it's so much worse for one particular group (transgender people were four times more likely than cis gender people to be victims of violent crime in 2017-2018; I don't have the specific murder stats on hand at the moment), clearly there is another issue on top of the violence issue to be concerned about. Reducing overall violence would be great, but it won't fix the problem that transgender people are experience more violence than cis people. That problem is rooted in transphobia, which requires different solutions.

sure and most likely 4 times is the probability for a weak guy to be harmed in an assault than a strong guy is. Also it's more likely to be harmed in a neighborhood with high crime rates. So on. Most victims of violent crimes are men. Most people in jail are men. Most people who are committing suicide are men. We can go by every single statistics we like, the world is not ideal for sure. There are many things to fix and I don't believe we will ever fix all of them but we have to try. But starting controversies around languages and being offended about everything and calling words violence, doesn't take us anywhere close to a better future, it leads to the opposite result in my opinion.

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I really feel like I need to break down what you seem to be suggesting I'm doing.

2 minutes ago, Tsela said:

 But starting controversies around languages

I suppose I see your perspective on this. I would argue that the controversy already exists and I'm merely calling attention to it.

3 minutes ago, Tsela said:

being offended about everything

I have never claimed to be offended (and certainly not about "everything"), and in fact I stated specifically that this had nothing to do with being offended. Those were words others put in my mouth to attack a strawman. My issue has always been very specific and targeted to a real-world problem and how a particular slur relates do it, and how I believe that the 3DXChat devs promoting that slur to their entire audience of...I have no idea what the population of 3DX is...is contributing to that problem and encouraging transphobia. Can you at least recognize that is much more nuanced and specific than merely whining "I'm offended"?

6 minutes ago, Tsela said:

calling words violence

I have never once called words violence. I have demonstrated how words contribute to a culture of ignorance that helps to justify transphobic violence. But to paint that as "calling words violence" is either grossly misunderstanding me or deliberately misrepresenting me.

If you feel I have actually claimed to be offended or called words violence, please present some evidence. We can't have an honest conversation when I'm being persistently misrepresented.

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well forgive me if I misunderstood it then, but I had the impression that you try to show a direct relation here between words like TRAP, a print on some panties, otherwise generally words that can be considered offensive towards some people, and victims of violence in everyday life. That's where I disagreed with you. 

Edited by Tsela
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20 minutes ago, Tsela said:

well forgive me if I misunderstood it then, but I had the impression that you try to show a direct relation here between words like TRAP, a print on some panties, otherwise generally words that can be considered offensive towards some people, and victims of violence in everyday life. That's where I disagreed with you. 

You're not completely wrong. It depends how you're interpreting that. It isn't like I'm saying that someone calls someone else a trap and that means they're going to physically attack them. There's definitely more nuance than that.

All I'm getting at is that the proliferation of these slurs is an issue. While each use might be a drop in the bucket, the millions of drops add up. Before you know it, the bucket has overflowed and what seemed like no big deal is now spreading into a whole culture of transphobia, subtle influencing a much broader perception of what transgender women are (i.e. the "men in dresses" myth). That perception is what leads to "trans panic" and other assaults. That perception has also led to a systemic problem where the courts themselves let these monsters off because they claim that panic as a defense.

So, I wouldn't call it a "direct relation", as in it's not a strait A to B situation. I don't think most things in life are ever so simple, especially when it comes to things like sociology, psychology, or even the influence of language.

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I know many might disagree, but I don't see a problem with the phrase "It's A Trap" on the underwear. I apologise if that may seem ignorant. It's a phrase I wouldn't get upset with. I know many people who prefer to be called traps or sissies. Many dominate women who love their submissive as sissies and traps. I think trying to control speech to make one's self not feel triggered is wrong. No one is forcing someone to wear them, and the label is optional. The underwear can be seen as humorous as well from some points of view. Well, I think it's funny. But It's sad to see that because someone doesn't like something, everyone else has to go without or cannot enjoy it.

 

If you don't like it, don't look at it. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, yet people try to force others to go without because they feel unhappy. I'm sorry, many things make me sad, but I don't let them get to me.

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11 hours ago, XxKittenMiaxX said:

I know many might disagree, but I don't see a problem with the phrase "It's A Trap" on the underwear. I apologise if that may seem ignorant. It's a phrase I wouldn't get upset with. I know many people who prefer to be called traps or sissies. Many dominate women who love their submissive as sissies and traps. I think trying to control speech to make one's self not feel triggered is wrong. No one is forcing someone to wear them, and the label is optional. The underwear can be seen as humorous as well from some points of view. Well, I think it's funny. But It's sad to see that because someone doesn't like something, everyone else has to go without or cannot enjoy it.

 

If you don't like it, don't look at it. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, yet people try to force others to go without because they feel unhappy. I'm sorry, many things make me sad, but I don't let them get to me.

Notwithstanding these are your views which you are entitled to express, I do think you might have completely misunderstood (or misrepresented) the arguments being discussed by the OP which are more nuanced than the way you have suggested.

Edited by Leopardus
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On 11/25/2021 at 10:12 PM, Leopardus said:

Notwithstanding these are your views which you are entitled to express, I do think you might have completely misunderstood (or misrepresented) the arguments being discussed by the OP, which are more nuanced than the way you have suggested.

I get where they are coming from; I do. But it is only a game, and no one is forcing anyone to wear them or be identified by it. I know a few people who identify as sissies who look and act more feminine than half the girls on here, and some of them thought the logo on the undies was funny.

The moment you start controlling speech is when the game no longer becomes fun because people have to worry about what they say or do. Yes, there are some nasty slurs out there, and yes, no one wants someone like that around but controlling what can be said is wrong, so block them. People on here should be old enough to look after themselves.

If someone doesn't like something, they should ignore it unless it's physically harming them, and I cant see a game jumping out of the screen and suffocating people with underwear.

If they are not happy with the game, no one is forcing them to stay or play I junk taking away something simply because someone dislikes it should not impact the rest of us, especially if it's not being forced onto them they have the option to not use the undies or remove the logo.

As for a man being tricked into having ERP with and another guy pretending to be a female, how does removing the logo fix the issue?

Edited by XxKittenMiaxX
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