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Suggestion: Maybe Don't Encourage Transphobia


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1 hour ago, Leopardus said:

Usually when a "debate" gets to this stage of "You said, I said" it's time to call an end.  No new perspectives are being added and all that is being proven is that people disagree with eachother (over and over).

It's not my place to say you can't carry on, but just asking that you consider the value and wisdom of it.

True. I think I am done with this discussion. There definitely not going to be any kind of agreement along the different sides of argument, neither anything new and worthy generated. 

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On 11/20/2021 at 11:39 PM, OzmaAsimov said:

No, I doubt they thought much about it at all. However, Lisa has demonstrated a history of ignorance when it comes to sensitivity to trans issues. This is just the latest example. As for Lisa's reaction? That was outright mockery and bullying. Bad will incarnate. She may not overtly hate trans people, but she is absolutely dismissive of us and of issues that affect us.

The devs don't dislike trans peoples, as a proof, each time women have some clothes trans peoples have them too, each time heteros have sex poses trans have them too.

So if someone say they dislike trans peoples, then they should hate lesbians when we see the poor number of sex poses (ONE) we obtened in this last update lol

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11 hours ago, Derai said:

Words are not violence?

If that’s the case you could walk up to a random black person and call them the N-word. 

There are many other examples. 
Words can be violent, and hurt people. 

https://youtu.be/cOlNHXQCT_4

 

Also the so called n-word was also used to strengthen and empower people. It was once used to classify people but a number of the community would even use the word as greetings till the random people who come up and complain that it isn't right. 

Then again I don't expect new generations to understand when they didn't even understand that eating tidepods was a stupid idea to begin with. 

Edited by Realdoll
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6 hours ago, Leeloo said:

The devs don't dislike trans peoples, as a proof, each time women have some clothes trans peoples have them too, each time heteros have sex poses trans have them too.

So if someone say they dislike trans peoples, then they should hate lesbians when we see the poor number of sex poses (ONE) we obtened in this last update lol

Are...are you serious? Trans people get the same clothes and poses as cis people...therefore the devs don't dislike trans people? Your logic is...nonexistent. Also, stop misrepresenting me. I didn't say the devs dislike trans people. I said, and I quote: "I doubt they thought much about it at all. However, Lisa has demonstrated a history of ignorance when it comes to sensitivity to trans issues". If you can't see the difference between those two concepts, I don't know what else to tell you.

2 hours ago, Realdoll said:

https://youtu.be/cOlNHXQCT_4

 

Also the so called n-word was also used to strengthen and empower people. It was once used to classify people but a number of the community would even use the word as greetings till the random people who come up and complain that it isn't right.

Sorry, but you're wrong. That word was modified into another word to empower people. That other word is the one you're talking about. The original word remains awful and continues to be used as a weapon. Just because Sam Jackson and some people are okay with it doesn't remove its centuries of history as a weapon, and the fact that it continues to fuel bigotry and, yes, violence.

2 hours ago, Realdoll said:

Then again I don't expect new generations to understand when they didn't even understand that eating tidepods was a stupid idea to begin with. 

It sounds as if you're making some assumptions about people here. What "new generations" would those be?

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The N-word can lead to violence the same way the F-word can.

It doesn't mean words are violence unless it's a threat to violence, like for example someone telling you that you should die in agony or something. That is violence since it's a threat.

But as far as "words that hurt" go... well probably those who feel like words hurt them all the time, probably they should leave their home with earplugs... the world is such a harmful place for them I guess.

Or probably they should grow up and learn to deal with everything like the rest of us, like adults, and make a distinction between actual violence and bullshit. 

Literally every single day I hear sexist stuff for example like men are the worst, men are all idiots, and stuff like that. I didn't die from it. Neither will you. Some people might be jerks but that is not violence. Violence is violence.

This whole topic is ridiculous to you tell the truth...

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37 minutes ago, Tsela said:

The N-word can lead to violence the same way the F-word can.

It doesn't mean words are violence unless it's a threat to violence, like for example someone telling you that you should die in agony or something. That is violence since it's a threat.

But as far as "words that hurt" go... well probably those who feel like words hurt them all the time, probably they should leave their home with earplugs... the world is such a harmful place for them I guess.

Or probably they should grow up and learn to deal with everything like the rest of us, like adults, and make a distinction between actual violence and bullshit. 

Literally every single day I hear sexist stuff for example like men are the worst, men are all idiots, and stuff like that. I didn't die from it. Neither will you. Some people might be jerks but that is not violence. Violence is violence.

This whole topic is ridiculous to you tell the truth...

Same old rhetoric one constantly hears from people who have never faced persecution with actual consequences. You're right, you won't die from people making sexist comments about men. Me, however, I do stand a chance of facing actual violence due to people spreading myths about trans women. You can deny it until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't change the reality of it.

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To be honest. People will always come up with something else to call someone and then will be used to try and get under their skin.

How they choose to let that word get to them is all on them and if they decide that it hurt them, the other party won.

 

Let's change the word. Let's say I start calling people Apples. What then? We ban the word apples?

 

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Here’s a question for @Realdolland @Tsela

Why does it upset you so much that people like Ozma are not okay with the use of the ‘Trap’ term?

In what way does it affect your life?

And why are you arguing so much to defend the use?

I’m genuinely confused with the amount of arguments you make to justify this. 
 

Sure for some it’s an empowered word they call themselves. 
But that’s not you, is it?

You have no dog in this fight, yet here you are barking up a storm. 
Granted, I’m not Trans myself so arguably I’m not affected by this situation either. 
Just wondering really. 

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2 hours ago, Derai said:

Here’s a question for @Realdolland @Tsela

Why does it upset you so much that people like Ozma are not okay with the use of the ‘Trap’ term?

In what way does it affect your life?

And why are you arguing so much to defend the use?

I’m genuinely confused with the amount of arguments you make to justify this. 
 

Sure for some it’s an empowered word they call themselves. 
But that’s not you, is it?

You have no dog in this fight, yet here you are barking up a storm. 
Granted, I’m not Trans myself so arguably I’m not affected by this situation either. 
Just wondering really. 

Certainly, I will gladly answer that.

it doesn't upset me that someone finds something inappropriate to be called as that. Of course I should not use any words in any conversation with someone because it would be unpolite, and insensitive. But that's not violence. Same is with the words SLUT and such, isn't something every woman would enjoy to be called that. Naturally I wouldn't call you a slut in our conversation, but that doesn't mean that the SLUT words on a colar in 3dxchat is a proof of hate against women.

And of course it doesn't affect my life, nor I defend the use of any specific word more than I defend the use of any other word. This is not a case of violence. 

I simply disagreed that this print is a proof of transphobia and call for aggression against any trans. So it's far from being even close to an act of violence or personal offense against anybody.

I see this topic as a regular toxic behavior, a constant search to be offended about something. It's just self victimization and argument for the sake of it. Not that the devs deliberately encourage transphobia and hate against trans people.

Edited by Tsela
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29 minutes ago, Tsela said:

Certainly, I will gladly answer that.

it doesn't upset me that someone finds something inappropriate to be called as that. Of course I should not use any words in any conversation with someone because it would be unpolite, and insensitive. But that's not violence. Same is with the words SLUT and such, isn't something every woman would enjoy to be called that. Naturally I wouldn't call you a slut in our conversation, but that doesn't mean that the SLUT words on a colar in 3dxchat is a proof of hate against women.

And of course it doesn't affect my life, nor I defend the use of any specific word more than I defend the use of any other word. This is not a case of violence. 

I simply disagreed that this print is a proof of transphobia and call for aggression against any trans. So it's far from being even close to an act of violence or personal offense against anybody.

I see this topic as a regular toxic behavior, a constant search to be offended about something. It's just self victimization and argument for the sake of it. Not that the devs deliberately encourage transphobia and hate against trans people.

For me personally the context of the ‘It’s a trap’ print is important. 
If it was a print on a top or shirt. 
I could see it as a reference to the Star Wars meme as Lisa linked. 

But instead it’s an underwear one. So it’s pretty clear what they refer too. 
 

I would never use it. And think adding it was bad taste to say the least. 
Because I’ve heard about the derogatory connotations of that term.
I’d also question the people I see using it. 
 

But I know I can’t stop any of it. The print is there. And people will use it.
I don’t like it. But accept it.   
 

Edit: Not to mention it’s a perfect example of bad quality control. Because of the typo. 

Edited by Derai
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2 minutes ago, Derai said:

For me personally the context of the ‘It’s a trap’ print is important. 
If it was a print on a top or shirt. 
I could see it as a reference to the Star Wars meme as Lisa linked. 

But instead it’s an underwear one. So it’s pretty clear what they refer too. 
 

I would never use it. And think adding it was bad taste to say the least. 
Because I’ve heard about the derogatory connotations of that term.
I’d also question the people I see using it. 
 

But I know I can’t stop any of it. The print is there. And people will use it.
I don’t like it. But accept it.   

Actually you know now that I think of it.... Where is any proof the the word Trap was really used in a harmful way? In fact it more was a meme and a joke mostly stemming from anime where a character was shown as a girl but turned out to be a boy. 

Never did I see someone go up to someone and say "You're a disgusting trap!" I more hear other words get used.

 

In my case btw, I'm more someone who watches the world tear itself apart over things they have 0 control over or blow everything out of proportion. I even seen personal family get caught into the craziness of it all which more often than not comes from Social Media outlets.

TikTok: bunch of kids aiming for clout deciding it was okay to commit crimes vandalizing school property.

Facebook: need I say anything. This brews political fanaticism on all sides more creating rifts in friends and family than it is to bring them together. Also many other issues.

YouTube.... Hard to say as you don't find the garbage unless you seek it.

Twitter: that place just breeds hate and anger that even people in the field of psychology agree is a bad place.

There are others, sure, but I decided to distance myself from the toxicity of the internet and actually live my life happily not getting worked up over new terms or slang or whatever goes on.

I'm in my early 30s and have a full time job. I don't have the time to get pissed off if someone calls me something stupid. I have better things to do than allow someone to get under my skin for stupid crap they decide to call me. I've been called a geek, a nerd, boomer, degenerate. You know what... That's who I am and I don't care.

I said it before, call me anything, just don't call me stupid, dumb, or ignorant.

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12 minutes ago, Derai said:

For me personally the context of the ‘It’s a trap’ print is important. 
If it was a print on a top or shirt. 
I could see it as a reference to the Star Wars meme as Lisa linked. 

But instead it’s an underwear one. So it’s pretty clear what they refer too. 
 

I would never use it. And think adding it was bad taste to say the least. 
Because I’ve heard about the derogatory connotations of that term.
I’d also question the people I see using it. 
 

But I know I can’t stop any of it. The print is there. And people will use it.
I don’t like it. But accept it.   
 

Edit: Not to mention it’s a perfect example of bad quality control. Because of the typo. 

Sure. I don't disagree with you here.

If you say that something in your opinion is of bad taste, I wouldn't disagree with you at all. There are lots of things I find to be of bad taste also. I dislike the pose where the man is on all fours and the woman can sit on his back. It's my own opinion and I dislike it. Sure it's not a general call to subjugate men, and an act of hate against men. It's a matter of taste. I personally find it distasteful.

if someone says "look this and that design is of bad taste, that word is inappropriate and I don't like it" I would have no problem with that. People dislike many things. Surely if someone dislikes something, they will not wear it either.

My only issue was the part where this print is portrayed as an encouragement to transphobic violence. 

Oh and that typo... "I'TS A TRAP" even that was called a deliberate act of aggression and not an accidental typo because of the ts part.... makes my head spin.

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I remember I played a game called "Summertime Saga" a couple years ago. It's a game on Patreon, so it's always in progress and development.
Rumor had it that one of the games characters was a Trap. The players were excited to speculate and find out who the Trap would be, looking for hints everywhere. And I didn't read a single negative word or anything transphobic. So I was astonished that it was here taken as such or even could causing hate and violence.

And I would like to hear about the myths that are spread about trans people that Ozma mentioned. Please don't take it offensive, I'm genuinely interested.

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8 hours ago, Derai said:

For me personally the context of the ‘It’s a trap’ print is important. 
If it was a print on a top or shirt. 
I could see it as a reference to the Star Wars meme as Lisa linked. 

But instead it’s an underwear one. So it’s pretty clear what they refer too. 

Personally i rarely put prints on my clothes, but, ok lets admit that it's a underwear print only (i didn't check if it is only on the panties or if it is also on the top). I suppose this "underwear print" is also available on the women panties (meant the panties without the package on it). Does it mean that it's an "attack" against women too ?

If both (trans and women) have this print on their panties, then this is only a well known space opera sentence. if only trans have this print on their panties, then yes you can consider it as a misrespect.

Edited by Leeloo
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23 hours ago, Realdoll said:

To be honest. People will always come up with something else to call someone and then will be used to try and get under their skin.

How they choose to let that word get to them is all on them and if they decide that it hurt them, the other party won.

 

Let's change the word. Let's say I start calling people Apples. What then? We ban the word apples?

Oh! Oh! Hang on everyone! Seriously now. Realdoll hit the nail on the head right here and might not have even realized it.

Let me emphasize the most important bit: Let's change the word. Let's say I start calling people Apples. What then? We ban the word apples?

ANSWER: Nope! "Apples" wouldn't be an issue. Sure, I wouldn't like that people use it as a slur, but it wouldn't be any worse than "slut" or other derogatory terms. Why? Okay, this is the important bit. Because "apple" does not directly imply that trans women are men. Words like "trap" and "shemale" do make that implication, and in doing so they are an attack on our very identity, our existence. They are a means of dehumanizing us, which makes it easier for the violent transphobes I keep mentioning to justify their actions to themselves and to the courts that keep letting them off the hook when they assault and murder us.

16 hours ago, Diana Prince said:

And I would like to hear about the myths that are spread about trans people that Ozma mentioned. Please don't take it offensive, I'm genuinely interested.

I'm never offended when someone wants to learn. The myths are what I described above and what I've reiterated many times throughout this thread. To recap briefly, here are the basics:

  • Trans women aren't real women
  • Trans women are just "men in dresses"
  • Trans women are trying to trap straight men into "gay" sex
  • Trans people are suffering from a psychological disorder that makes them transgender

These are just the myths that relate to the discussion at hand. Believe me, there are many, many more harmful myths about transgender people out there. If you want a more in-depth look at this (especially how TV and film have contributed to a lot of these myths), I highly recommend the Netflix documentary Disclosure.

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3 hours ago, OzmaAsimov said:

Oh! Oh! Hang on everyone! Seriously now. Realdoll hit the nail on the head right here and might not have even realized it.

Let me emphasize the most important bit: Let's change the word. Let's say I start calling people Apples. What then? We ban the word apples?

ANSWER: Nope! "Apples" wouldn't be an issue. Sure, I wouldn't like that people use it as a slur, but it wouldn't be any worse than "slut" or other derogatory terms. Why? Okay, this is the important bit. Because "apple" does not directly imply that trans women are men. Words like "trap" and "shemale" do make that implication, and in doing so they are an attack on our very identity, our existence. They are a means of dehumanizing us, which makes it easier for the violent transphobes I keep mentioning to justify their actions to themselves and to the courts that keep letting them off the hook when they assault and murder us.

I'm never offended when someone wants to learn. The myths are what I described above and what I've reiterated many times throughout this thread. To recap briefly, here are the basics:

  • Trans women aren't real women
  • Trans women are just "men in dresses"
  • Trans women are trying to trap straight men into "gay" sex
  • Trans people are suffering from a psychological disorder that makes them transgender

These are just the myths that relate to the discussion at hand. Believe me, there are many, many more harmful myths about transgender people out there. If you want a more in-depth look at this (especially how TV and film have contributed to a lot of these myths), I highly recommend the Netflix documentary Disclosure.

Firstly, I keep seeing the mention of violent and would like to reiterate that I haven't seen anyone using trap as a direct insult as it was a star wars meme where it originated.

And again, no one bats an eye at Karen, Bitch, Boomer, Zoomer, Whore, Slut, Sissy, Pet, Fuckboy, ect. But I seen more people get up in arms over the word Trap... A meme.... 

This reminds me of the time the news media took a stupid ass game ages ago called the circle game where you make a circle on your hip and get someone to look. News media took this and tried twisting it to be a symbol of White Power. 

 

I would argue that these things only actually made more people open up their sexuality and rethink how their views on people really are.

The again. I doubt onions such as yourself would like to break from social media and just relax for a second. Instead you want to create drama at every turn because life must be that damn boring.

 

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30 minutes ago, Realdoll said:

Firstly, I keep seeing the mention of violent and would like to reiterate that I haven't seen anyone using trap as a direct insult as it was a star wars meme where it originated.

Okay. But you're committing an anecdotal fallacy here. Just because you haven't personally seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And just follow the logic. Why do you think "it's a trap" became associated with the idea of guys being unable to distinguish if a person is a trans woman, cis woman, cis man, etc.? It's because the phrase and the word were turned into a reference to (once again) the myth of trying to "trap" straight men into "gay" sex.

30 minutes ago, Realdoll said:

And again, no one bats an eye at Karen, Bitch, Boomer, Zoomer, Whore, Slut, Sissy, Pet, Fuckboy, ect. But I seen more people get up in arms over the word Trap... A meme....

1) That's not true. Many an eye is batted at such words. Just perhaps not to the same degree.

2) Why do you suppose "trap" is different? Gosh...could it be for all the reasons I've repeated over and over every time one of you tries to misrepresent or ignore them here? Could it be for the reason that "apple" wouldn't be an issue, like I just pointed out in response to your own comment about the word "apple"?

30 minutes ago, Realdoll said:

I would argue that these things only actually made more people open up their sexuality and rethink how their views on people really are.

The again. I doubt onions such as yourself would like to break from social media and just relax for a second. Instead you want to create drama at every turn because life must be that damn boring.

It's fun how you conjure up all of these ideas about me and people like me when you know almost nothing about me. It's no wonder you're so narrow-minded about this. You've already made up your mind about me before knowing anything about me. I can hardly expect you to broaden your horizons about a much larger issue if you can't even accept that an individual is more complex than the two-dimensional template you've pre-constructed in your imagination.

Edited by OzmaAsimov
typo fix (repeated words)
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What would be your definition of a woman? That's an important point I think.

I read somewhere an interesting definition: when you can get pregnant, you are a woman. When you can make someone pregnant, you are a man.

Or do you define yourself as a man because you feel like a man? And how do you know that the feelings you have are the same feelings a man has? I wouldn't even know if my feelings are the same that another woman has.

Edited by Diana Prince
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In my honest opinion, I don't see that print as anything that encourages transphobia, like all the other new prints, saying "It's a trap" is more like a joke, it's kind of common thing in gaming community for example, calling femboys or transgender people a "trap" as some kind of a joke/meme, I don't really see the huge fuss about adding a print saying that, plus you don't encourage transphobia, it's mainly related to everyone culture and how they lived their life to accept or deny things, one of them the idea of people transforming to the other gender because they feel better and happier that way.

The only problem I see there is the print being spelled wrongly as "I'ts a trap" as a friend of mine called it out in day 1 patch.

Edited by Leathium
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36 minutes ago, Diana Prince said:

What would be your definition of a woman? That's an important point I think.

I read somewhere an interesting definition: when you can get pregnant, you are a woman. When you can make someone pregnant, you are a man.

Or do you define yourself as a man because you feel like a man? And how do you know that the feelings you have are the same feelings a man has? I wouldn't even know if my feelings are the same that another woman has.

So if woman infertile - she is not a woman anymore?

If man can't have children - he is not a man? 

Interesting definition, indeed. Would be very suitable... for, I dunno, 18th century? Not sure though, sounds pretty barbaric even for this age lol. 

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3 minutes ago, Xizi said:

So if woman infertile - she is not a woman anymore?

If man can't have children - he is not a man? 

Interesting definition, indeed. Would be very suitable... for, I dunno, 18th century? Not sure though, sounds pretty barbaric even for this age lol. 

A medical issue is of course something different.

But what would your definition of a woman or man be? Can I be a black man because I feel like one?

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25 minutes ago, Diana Prince said:

But what would your definition of a woman or man be? Can I be a black man because I feel like one?

If you realize that our concept of ‘Gender’ is not the same as someone’s ‘Sex’. 

In many cultures before ‘Western Morals’ and some Religions took over, the ‘Gender Binary’ as we know it, didn’t exist. 
Hawaiian and I believe Native American culture had Man, Woman, and Inbetween/Both. Persons that in today’s world would be classified as Transgender or Hermaphrodite. 
They were not ostracized, but instead celebrated for being special and blessed. 
 

What gender you are, is just a mental thing indeed. 

If you feel you are masculine and consider yourself a Man. You are one. 

Regardless of what genitalia you possess. 
 

The ethnic side of it is a different story altogether. 

Edited by Derai
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33 minutes ago, Diana Prince said:

A medical issue is of course something different.

Nice lol

33 minutes ago, Diana Prince said:

But what would your definition of a woman or man be?

An adult male person or person identifying as one.

An adult female person or person identifying as one.

34 minutes ago, Diana Prince said:

Can I be a black man because I feel like one?

I don't know.

 

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1 hour ago, Xizi said:

Nice lol

An adult male person or person identifying as one.

An adult female person or person identifying as one.

I don't know.

 

But I still don't know what makes you identify as a man or woman outside your biological gender? Why do you think you are a man? How do you know that what you feel is the same as a man feels? And are all men feeling the same?

Let me tell you a funny story from Germany that brings this logic to its extremes.
The Green Party here has a rule that the top list position for some elections always go to women. The second postion to men, the third to women and so on.
So what did the top rated man do? He said he now identifies as a woman and had to be placed on top spot. And due to their rules, the Green Party could not do anything against it.

And I don't know how the women in sports feel when they now have to compete against former men.

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