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Suggestion: Maybe Don't Encourage Transphobia


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33 minutes ago, Tsela said:

So probably people should get their shit together and stop pointing out stuff like "racism" "homophobia" "transphobia"  unless it really is the case. If there is a threat to someone and a vulnerable person is pushed into a corner, or bullied, count me in, I'm there with you to help. But most often I see just a deliberate wish to feel offended about something when there is no threat of harm or any sort of personal attack against someone.

I disagree with you on this. 
The world is more nuanced then just ‘threats’ like you describe. 

And I’ve seen far too many instances where it starts with simple statements of ‘just a trap’ or ‘just a guy in a dress’ but it ends with them being denied healthcare, homes, or falling victim to physical violence. 
 

If we ignore and overlook the small stuff like you say. We open the door to acceptance of those insults. And that directly leads to tragedy. 
That’s not a belief, that’s a fact. 

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25 minutes ago, Tsela said:

So probably people should get their shit together and stop pointing out stuff like "racism" "homophobia" "transphobia"  unless it really is the case. If there is a threat to someone and a vulnerable person is pushed into a corner, or bullied, count me in, I'm there with you to help. But most often I see just a deliberate wish to feel offended about something when there is no threat of harm or any sort of personal attack against someone.

But if you going to call transwomen a "guys in the skirts" isn't it a bullying? I mean bullying does not have to be physical. And many, I am not dare to state "most", but many for sure, trans women are vulnerable persons. So your words about standing against bullying vulnerable persons sounds kinda... contradictory.

 

And yes, I already can see that someone noticing contradiction in my position as well and they can say something like "But calling transwoman a "trap" can be considered a bullying too, why are you against removing the print from the game then?". But I'll explain.

Because no one forcing people to use this print on their clothes. If someone self identify's as a "trap" (even if only in game) - they can wear it. Btw I would not be against "Queer" print as well. There are quite number of people who self-identify this way so why not, no one forcing others to use it. 

 

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Just now, Derai said:

I disagree with you on this. 
The world is more nuanced then just ‘threats’ like you describe. 

And I’ve seen far too many instances where it starts with simple statements of ‘just a trap’ or ‘just a guy in a dress’ but it ends with them being denied healthcare, homes, or falling victim to physical violence. 
 

If we ignore and overlook the small stuff like you say. We open the door to acceptance of those insults. And that directly leads to tragedy. 
That’s not a belief, that’s a fact. 

Yeah well if someone is denied healthcare, a place to stay, or physically attacked is naturally offensive and all human beings deserve protection against physical assault and should receive healthcare regardless of their views or affiliations with cultural groups. 

I just think you are jumping way ahead.

As I said jokes about God, nuns and priests doesn't necessarily lead to persecution of christians.

It's one thing to "feel offended" about something, because we can name anything we feel offended about and it's another thing when actually being offended, threatened, harmed.

I can't do much about your feelings. People can only help when there is a real offense. Otherwise we just try to come up with excuses for arguments.

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52 minutes ago, Xizi said:

Because no one forcing people to use this print on their clothes. If someone self identify's as a "trap" (even if only in game) - they can wear it. Btw I would not be against "Queer" print as well. There are quite number of people who self-identify this way so why not, no one forcing others to use it. 

 

sure that's all there is to it. Agreed. 

Well sure maybe there are some things we find distasteful, or flat out disgusting. We don't share the same perspectives, and some clothings, looks, language I find highly inappropiate or disgusting. It's not the same as being offended or threatened. 

I just shared my thoughts about this topic which implies that transphobia is encouraged by the words TRAP on some panties.

Just like the words PET doesn't encourage people to treat eachother like animals :)) whoever wears it... well it's their thing. I wouldn't wear it but that's me.

Edited by Tsela
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I have to agree with Tsela. Why should "Trap" cause transphobia? I mean, "phobia" means fear, like arachnophobia is the fear of spiders. Are there really people that have fear of trans people? They should get their act together or get their mental status checked.

I guess most people just don't care about your sexual preferences (and look more after what you say and what you do). Maybe I'm just too naive because I was not in such a position and haven't experienced what they might experience.

But you can't deny that the "political correctness" is growing in the last years. In my opinion it's not always positive. E.g. renaming "Uncle Ben's" to "Ben's Original". Does it really help the black community that the name was changed and the picture of Uncle Ben (a black man) was removed?

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11 minutes ago, Diana Prince said:

I have to agree with Tsela. Why should "Trap" cause transphobia? I mean, "phobia" means fear, like arachnophobia is the fear of spiders. Are there really people that have fear of trans people? They should get their act together or get their mental status checked.

Transphobia does not only mean fear, often (I would even say in most cases) its about dislike / hatred towards trans people. 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/transphobia

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/transphobia

 

I agree about political correctness though. Censorship will not bring us anywhere good. 

Maybe some EXTREME things should be censored, something like direct calls for violence, but "it's trap" is not even close to something like that.  

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I really don't think that Gizmo and Lisa dislike or hate trans people and were thinking: "Hm, how can we make our dislike be known subtly in the game? A, how about a print on the panties!"
I can't imagine there was any bad will behind it, as Lisa's reaction here has shown.

Hey, I would laugh about a "Let's go, Brandon!" print on a shirt or panties 😉

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4 hours ago, Diana Prince said:

I have to agree with Tsela. Why should "Trap" cause transphobia? I mean, "phobia" means fear, like arachnophobia is the fear of spiders. Are there really people that have fear of trans people? They should get their act together or get their mental status checked.

I guess most people just don't care about your sexual preferences (and look more after what you say and what you do). Maybe I'm just too naive because I was not in such a position and haven't experienced what they might experience.

But you can't deny that the "political correctness" is growing in the last years. In my opinion it's not always positive. E.g. renaming "Uncle Ben's" to "Ben's Original". Does it really help the black community that the name was changed and the picture of Uncle Ben (a black man) was removed?

🇫🇷 les mots avec "phobies", sont employés pour désigner la peur, en effet, puisque c'est leur étymologie.
Concernant la xénophobie, homophobie, transphobie. On emploie ces mots, d'une part pour établir que les gens ont peur de ce qu'ils ne ce qu'ils ne connaissent pas, et par conséquent, on tendance à être sur la défensive, voir à attaquer. D'où l'utilisation de ces mots. Vous avez des gens, par simple fait de l'éducation, ne savent pas ce qu'est l'homosexualité, ou la transexualité, et sont souvent influencés par des discours péjoratifs, voir haineux, ce qui va déterminer leur attitude. Souvent par peur, parce qu'ils ne connaissent pas, la peur de l'inconnue, et parce qu'ils sont influencés.
De là, vous aurez : ou des gens qui vont chercher à savoir et comprendre. Et d'autres qui au contraires, vont rester sur leur apprioris.

Concernant les changements de logos et noms de marque comme Ben's Originale (ex Uncle Ben's), c'est que les images rappelaient des stéréotypes liés à l'époque colonialisme, qui était devenus dérangeants. Le cliché de l'homme noir travaillant dans les rizières, ou la femme noire, a l'époque post coloniale, servante et cuisinière.  Donc oui, d'une certaine façon, cela aide la population noire, car le fait de ne plus avoir ces images, aide consciemment ou inconsciemment à enlever c'est stéréotypes. Ainsi l'homme noir, ou la femme noire, n'est plus identifié comme le travailleur dans les rizières, ou dans la cuisine à servir. 

_____________________________________

🇺🇸 the words with "phobias", are used to designate the fear, indeed, since it is their etymology.
Concerning xenophobia, homophobia, transphobia. These words are used, on the one hand, to establish that people are afraid of what they don't know, and therefore tend to be defensive, or even to attack. Hence the use of these words. You have people, by simple fact of education, do not know what is homosexuality, or transexuality, and are often influenced by pejorative speeches, even hateful, which will determine their attitude. Often because of fear, because they do not know, fear of the unknown, and because they are influenced.
From there, you will have: or people who will seek to know and understand. And others who, on the contrary, will remain on their apprioris.

Concerning the changes of logos and brand names like Ben's Originale (ex Uncle Ben's), it is because the images reminded stereotypes linked to the colonialism era, which had become disturbing. The cliché of the black man working in the rice fields, or the black woman, in the post-colonial era, servant and cook.  So yes, in a way, it helps the black population, because the fact of not having these images anymore, helps consciously or unconsciously to remove these stereotypes. So the black man, or the black woman, is no longer identified as the worker in the rice fields, or in the kitchen serving. 

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On 11/19/2021 at 5:15 AM, Diana Prince said:

I really don't think that Gizmo and Lisa dislike or hate trans people and were thinking: "Hm, how can we make our dislike be known subtly in the game? A, how about a print on the panties!"
I can't imagine there was any bad will behind it, as Lisa's reaction here has shown.

No, I doubt they thought much about it at all. However, Lisa has demonstrated a history of ignorance when it comes to sensitivity to trans issues. This is just the latest example. As for Lisa's reaction? That was outright mockery and bullying. Bad will incarnate. She may not overtly hate trans people, but she is absolutely dismissive of us and of issues that affect us.

On 11/19/2021 at 4:05 AM, Tsela said:

Yeah well if someone is denied healthcare, a place to stay, or physically attacked is naturally offensive and all human beings deserve protection against physical assault and should receive healthcare regardless of their views or affiliations with cultural groups. 

I just think you are jumping way ahead.

As I said jokes about God, nuns and priests doesn't necessarily lead to persecution of christians.

False equivalency. Christianity is one of the dominant religions on this planet. There are vast resources available to support and defend Christians, from the immensely wealthy Catholic church to fundamentalist politicians pushing religious agendas. Yet, in spite of this, anti-Christian rhetoric still leads to violence against Christians in parts of the world where they do face persecution, such as Egypt.

"But 'i'ts a trap' isn't anti-trans rhetoric!" Yes, it is. Just because you mask something in a "joke" doesn't make it any less impactful than an outright condemnation. The joke can be worse, because it is viewed as harmless. But every joke, every "guys in skirts" comment, every dismissal of a trans person just trying to raise awareness of these issues...every single one of these piles up and contributes to the massive anti-trans sentiment that has existed for decades and longer, and has been growing even more in recent years.

We are not "jumping ahead". We are way, way behind. There is no "if": we are denied health care, jobs, homes, and we are assaulted and murdered just for being trans. That doesn't just happen because some jerks woke up one morning and decided to hate and fear us. It happens because a relentless deluge of attacks on the very concept of our existence influenced those jerks. Most of those attacks aren't the big assaults like bathroom bills; they are the tidal waves of little hits...the "jokes". These little comments aren't harmless. One or two might be, but it's never one or two. It's an endless flood, and that kind of saturation does impact the way people see us.

So, when I see how the actions of one or two people (Lisa and Gizmo) are spreading anti-trans rhetoric, unintentionally or otherwise, to a huge audience, you can be damn sure I'm going to speak up and at least try to educate them. If Lisa just wants to bully me in response, I can't do much about that. I can only hope that some people reading this thread have learned something valuable about compassion.

Edited by OzmaAsimov
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Well probably you also have a thing or two to learn about limiting your toxic behavior and not trying to make every single thing a personal offense against you, like bunch of others also concluded here.

You were not bullied, harassed, verbally abused or attacked by Lisa or some words on panties. Just like no girl in 3dxchat takes it as a personal offense that the words SLUT exist on some colar.

Your provocations lead to nothing, and probably the 3dxchat forums aren't the place for some misguided political activism, so probably you should search forums dedicated to that if that's your thing.

I don't have issues with your beliefs or ideas about life, but I can take a wild guess how many actual problems are real in your everyday life, if even a small thing like this is highlighted by you as a huge problem and sheer proof of transphobia and bullying. Yeah it makes people wonder what is the actual magnitude of the problems you actually have.

Well we said everything there was to said about this, we would repeat ourselves only at this point. Others reasonably explained it to you also and I have nothing more to add either.

Please try to enjoy your time, keep people who you care about close and be happy with the support of close people and loved ones. Don't go looking deliberately for stuff to be personally offended about. That's just regular toxic behavior.

I said everything I had to say about this topic anyway. Godspeed

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You have clearly either not read the entire thread or my original post, or more likely none of it can penetrate your prejudices. Sorry, Tsela, but you have demonstrated some of the most blatant transphobia so far. Several people have pointed this out but you seem immune to any critique of your own words (kinda like Lisa!). You definitely have a thing or two to learn about limiting your toxic behavior.

Yes, others have explained a lot to me...about their opinions and their desire for me to shut up, and yet nobody will directly address the points I bring up except to essentially say "nuh uh". Even you had nothing to say when I demonstrated the fallacy of your assertion that "jokes about God, nuns and priests doesn't necessarily lead to persecution of christians" as a comparison to trans "jokes" hurting trans people. People explain, I counter their points with actual evidence and logic...then people change the subject or just ignore what I point out.

It's very telling about which arguments hold water and which ones fall apart under the slightest scrutiny.

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To be completely honest I think people need to stop and think for a bit as to what actually is a slur. 

I never in my whole life seen Trap as a slur even in the context of sexual orientation.

Why do I say this?

Slut has more harmful meaning behind it

Whore has more harmful meanings behind it

Sissy  also has that.

 

But wait this is something that goes even deeper. Some people have taken those words and decided to embrace those rather than letting them bring them down and instead make them stronger.

 

Non sex related

NERD

 
 
 
 
nerd
/nərd/
 
INFORMAL
noun
 
  1. a foolish or contemptible person who lacks social skills or is boringly studious.
    "one of those nerds who never asked a girl to dance"
     
    Similar:
    bore
     
     
    dull person
     
    dweeb
     
     
    geek
     
     
    anorak
     
     
    spod
     
    Poindexter
     
     
    dork
     
    •  
       
verb
 
  1. engage in or discuss a technical field obsessively or with great attention to detail.
    "his engineering background means he tends to nerd out a bit on the numbers"

Such a word was used to make fun of people yet the funny thing happened, those same people took that word and instead embraced it and made it something positive.

So getting upset at who calls who what to me is more a sign of weakness than strength and by the time we let banning of words continue we wont be able to say a goddamned thing without pissing someone, somewhere off.

 

Call me whatever, but don't call me dumb, stupid, or ignorant.

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For the...what, third? fourth time?...it does not matter whether anyone is offended, whether anyone intended offense, whether "trap" is being used as a slur. It simply does not matter. Why? Well, I've already explained this multiple times, but since reading comprehension (or the willingness to actually read the full thread) is low here, I'll go over it again.

BIGOTS DON'T CARE. It's the violent bigots that hear "trap" and incorporate that into their twisted world view. It's the violent bigots that hear "trap" and think "man in a dress trying to trick me into gay sex". It's the violent bigots that then take those thoughts and turn them into action, assaulting and murdering trans women.

So again, it does not matter that you haven't heard the term. It does not matter that you think other slurs are worse. All that matters is that violent transphobes exist and use these ideas to justify their disgusting actions (once again, go research the Trans Panic Defense).

Words can and do cause harm. It's not as simple as just "reclaiming" them; not when other people take those words and use them as fuel for their violent behavior.

Edited by OzmaAsimov
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3 hours ago, OzmaAsimov said:

For the...what, third? fourth time?...it does not matter whether anyone is offended, whether anyone intended offense, whether "trap" is being used as a slur. It simply does not matter. Why? Well, I've already explained this multiple times, but since reading comprehension (or the willingness to actually read the full thread) is low here, I'll go over it again.

BIGOTS DON'T CARE. It's the violent bigots that hear "trap" and incorporate that into their twisted world view. It's the violent bigots that hear "trap" and think "man in a dress trying to trick me into gay sex". It's the violent bigots that then take those thoughts and turn them into action, assaulting and murdering trans women.

So again, it does not matter that you haven't heard the term. It does not matter that you think other slurs are worse. All that matters is that violent transphobes exist and use these ideas to justify their disgusting actions (once again, go research the Trans Panic Defense).

Words can and do cause harm. It's not as simple as just "reclaiming" them; not when other people take those words and use them as fuel for their violent behavior.

To be honest

Words will always be used to try and cause harm. It's how you deal with it that makes it work. And when one word stops meaning something, something will take its place. Boomer, Zoomer are 2 the instantly come to mind. But when people decided to not be offended by said terms, they died out and withered away and some adults will even call themselves Boomers and some teen/young adults will call themselves zoomers.

Words will only have control over you if you let them. I am one that chooses not to let petty titles classify and demean who I am.

slut
/slət/
 
noun
 
  1. 1.
    OFFENSIVE
    a woman who has many casual sexual partners.
    whore
    /hôr/
     
    noun
     
    1. 1.
      DEROGATORY
      a prostitute.
      sis·sy
      /ˈsisē/
       
      DEROGATORYINFORMAL
      noun
      noun: sissy; plural noun: sissies; noun: cissy; plural noun: cissies
      1. a person regarded as effeminate or cowardly.
        "he would hate the other boys to think he was a sissy"
         
        Similar:
        coward
         
         
        weakling
         
         
        namby-pamby
         
         
        crybaby
         
         
        baby
         
         
        milquetoast
         
         
        softie
         
         
        snowflake
         
         
        chicken
         
         
        milksop
         
         
        mama's boy
         
         
        wet
         
         
        weed
         
         
        big girl's blouse
         
        jessie
         
        ponce
         
         
        pantywaist
         
         
        cupcake
         
         
        pussy
         
         
        sook
         
         
        poltroon
         
         
      adjective
      adjective: sissy; comparative adjective: sissier; superlative adjective: sissiest; adjective: cissy; comparative adjective: cissier; superlative adjective: cissiest
      1. feeble and cowardly.
        bitch
        /biCH/
         
        noun
        noun: bitch; plural noun: bitches; noun: a bitch
        1. 1.
          a female dog, wolf, fox, or otter.
           
        2. 2.
          DEROGATORY
          a spiteful, unpleasant, or disliked woman.
           
          Similar:
          shrew
           
           
          cow
           
           
          witch
           
           
          cat
           
           
          she-devil
           
           
          hellcat
           
           
          baggage
           
           
          grimalkin
           
          • OFFENSIVE
            a woman.
          • INFORMAL
            a person who is completely subservient to another.
            "he will always be her bitch"
          • INFORMALUS
            used as a form of address.
            "I'm free, bitches!"
        3. 3.
          INFORMAL
          a difficult or unpleasant situation or thing.
          "the stove is a bitch to fix"
           
          Similar:
          nightmare
           
           
          bastard
           
           
          bummer
           
           
          … from hell
           
           
          swine
           
           
          pig
           
           
          stinker
           
           
          complaint
           
           
          moan
           
           
          grumble
           
           
          gripe
           
           
          grouse
           
           
          grouch
           
           
          beef
           
           
          bellyache
           
           
          whinge
           
           
          vulgar slang
          bugger
           
           
          sod
           
           
        4. 4.
          INFORMAL
          a complaint.
          "my big bitch is that there's nothing new here"
           
        verb
        INFORMAL
        verb: bitch; 3rd person present: bitches; past tense: bitched; past participle: bitched; gerund or present participle: bitching
        1. express displeasure; grumble.
          "they bitch about everything"
           
          Similar:
          be spiteful about
           
          criticize
           
           
          find fault with
           
           
          run down
           
           
          cast aspersions on
           
          speak ill of
           
           
          slander
           
           
          malign
           
           
          complain
           
           
          moan
           
           
          grumble
           
           
          grouse
           
           
          grouch
           
           
          gripe
           
           
          knock
           
           
          pull to pieces
           
          take apart
           
           
          do a hatchet job on
           
          whinge
           
           
          bad-mouth
           
           
          trash
           
           
          twine
           
           
          slag off
           
           
          rubbish
           
          • make spitefully critical comments.
            "everybody was bitching about their colleagues"
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5 hours ago, OzmaAsimov said:

BIGOTS DON'T CARE. It's the violent bigots that hear "trap" and incorporate that into their twisted world view. It's the violent bigots that hear "trap" and think "man in a dress trying to trick me into gay sex". It's the violent bigots that then take those thoughts and turn them into action, assaulting and murdering trans women.

So again, it does not matter that you haven't heard the term. It does not matter that you think other slurs are worse. All that matters is that violent transphobes exist and use these ideas to justify their disgusting actions (once again, go research the Trans Panic Defense).

1. Who cares what violent transphobes using to justify their violence? They are ALREADY violent transphobes. They became violent transphobes not because of some silly meme in the internet. And they will always find a justification for themselves, they don't need this meme, they can use anything else. 

2. Even if, to some degree, this kind of meme can add some fuel to these menially ill people's hatred, its still not a reason enough (from my point of view at least) to censor it. We should not take away from ourselves to not provoke some little percentage of really twisted fucks. 

Aggressive / violent video games? Censor it, or some mentally unstable person can be provoked! Suicide themes in art / films / games / music? Censor these fucking artists, what if some vulnerable depressive emotionally unstable person will end up jumping under the train? Memes? Censor it, what if it will fuel someone's hatred? 

Fuck this shit, fuck censorship and fuck sheepish society that throws away the freedom in the name of new sanctity - safety! 

If someone commits violent crimes - throw this fuck in the jail. That's all. No need to take away people's freedoms. 

And yes, I know that there always be some very little percentage of really fucked in the head people who are not going to be stopped even by fear of life in prison. Yeah, it is so. World is not a perfectly safe place. Never have been. So what? 

Edited by Xizi
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I have avoided this thread mainly due to  my naivety. However,  it is through this world (3DXCHAT) that I have expanded my understanding of human sexuality in all its forms.

I am not here to judge.  Just to experience and learn.  I may use words that could be construed as anti-whatever or bigoted, but never with an intent to hurt.  I think many here feel the same way.  

I relish the opportunity to learn from all of you.  Please keep the dialog going!

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3 hours ago, Xizi said:

1. Who cares what violent transphobes using to justify their violence? They are ALREADY violent transphobes. They became violent transphobes not because of some silly meme in the internet. And they will always find a justification for themselves, they don't need this meme, they can use anything else. 

2. Even if, to some degree, this kind of meme can add some fuel to these menially ill people's hatred, its still not a reason enough (from my point of view at least) to censor it. We should not take away from ourselves to not provoke some little percentage of really twisted fucks. 

Aggressive / violent video games? Censor it, or some mentally unstable person can be provoked! Suicide themes in art / films / games / music? Censor these fucking artists, what if some vulnerable depressive emotionally unstable person will end up jumping under the train? Memes? Censor it, what if it will fuel someone's hatred? 

Fuck this shit, fuck censorship and fuck sheepish society that throws away the freedom in the name of new sanctity - safety! 

If someone commits violent crimes - throw this fuck in the jail. That's all. No need to take away people's freedoms. 

And yes, I know that there always be some very little percentage of really fucked in the head people who are not going to be stopped even by fear of life in prison. Yeah, it is so. World is not a perfectly safe place. Never have been. So what? 

Yes, I'm strongly against censorship because some groups might be offended.
Take e.g. Disney. They remove black actors from their promotion in China, because this country does not really like people of color. This is utterly insane!

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4 hours ago, Xizi said:

1. Who cares what violent transphobes using to justify their violence? They are ALREADY violent transphobes. They became violent transphobes not because of some silly meme in the internet. And they will always find a justification for themselves, they don't need this meme, they can use anything else.

Once again, you attempt to strawman this argument by trying to make it about a meme. It isn't and never has been. Violent transphobes became violent transphobes because of transphobic influences in their lives. Among those influences is language that perpetuates the "men in dresses trapping straight men into gay sex" myth.

4 hours ago, Xizi said:

2. Even if, to some degree, this kind of meme can add some fuel to these menially ill people's hatred, its still not a reason enough (from my point of view at least) to censor it. We should not take away from ourselves to not provoke some little percentage of really twisted fucks.

Take what away from ourselves? A print on some panties? That seems to be what you're so focused on, and it boggles my mind that you place so much value on it. The only thing I propose to "take away" is the devs openly encouraging bigotry. In my opinion, that would be a gain, not a loss.

4 hours ago, Xizi said:

Aggressive / violent video games? Censor it, or some mentally unstable person can be provoked! Suicide themes in art / films / games / music? Censor these fucking artists, what if some vulnerable depressive emotionally unstable person will end up jumping under the train? Memes? Censor it, what if it will fuel someone's hatred? 

Fuck this shit, fuck censorship and fuck sheepish society that throws away the freedom in the name of new sanctity - safety!

There you go down that slippery slope fallacy again. To ask for reasonable restraint on one kind of behavior does not lead to the censorship of anything and everything someone might find distasteful. Every situation is different.

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12 minutes ago, Tsela said:

Words are not violence.

Violence is violence.

Probably get that through your thick skull

I never claimed words are violence.

I've explained (many times) how certain words can lead to specific forms violence.

Maybe if you read more carefully (or at all) you will gain some measure of comprehension.

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15 minutes ago, Tsela said:

Words are not violence.

Violence is violence.

Probably get that through your thick skull

Words are not violence?

If that’s the case you could walk up to a random black person and call them the N-word. 

There are many other examples. 
Words can be violent, and hurt people. 

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sure and if you dress in pink, you might provoke somebody. That means the color pink is violent. It leads to violence. OK.

Colors can be violent, and hurt people.

Let's remove some of those offensive colors. they are highly inappropriate and they lead to violence against people in real life.

...or something

Edited by Tsela
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Usually when a "debate" gets to this stage of "You said, I said" it's time to call an end.  No new perspectives are being added and all that is being proven is that people disagree with eachother (over and over).

It's not my place to say you can't carry on, but just asking that you consider the value and wisdom of it.

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5 hours ago, Xizi said:

1. Who cares what violent transphobes using to justify their violence? They are ALREADY violent transphobes. They became violent transphobes not because of some silly meme in the internet. And they will always find a justification for themselves, they don't need this meme, they can use anything else. 

2. Even if, to some degree, this kind of meme can add some fuel to these menially ill people's hatred, its still not a reason enough (from my point of view at least) to censor it. We should not take away from ourselves to not provoke some little percentage of really twisted fucks. 

Aggressive / violent video games? Censor it, or some mentally unstable person can be provoked! Suicide themes in art / films / games / music? Censor these fucking artists, what if some vulnerable depressive emotionally unstable person will end up jumping under the train? Memes? Censor it, what if it will fuel someone's hatred? 

Fuck this shit, fuck censorship and fuck sheepish society that throws away the freedom in the name of new sanctity - safety! 

If someone commits violent crimes - throw this fuck in the jail. That's all. No need to take away people's freedoms. 

And yes, I know that there always be some very little percentage of really fucked in the head people who are not going to be stopped even by fear of life in prison. Yeah, it is so. World is not a perfectly safe place. Never have been. So what? 

well I don't have a whole lot to add to this.

Xizi pretty much wrapped it up nicely whatever most of us were saying

Well in any case, the entire topic is just some clumsy attempt to provocation, not that somebody is personally attacked, bullied, or the devs deliberately torturing someone, or display a blatant bigoted behavior.. As long as there is no actual threat or violence against somebody, there was no harm done.

We share different views, we disagree many times on different things, and that's perfectly fine. But we should draw a line somewhere over what is considered actual violence.

Some of these toxic people try to explain that even disagreeing with them is a display of violence, bigotry, and call for personal harm.

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28 minutes ago, Leopardus said:

Usually when a "debate" gets to this stage of "You said, I said" it's time to call an end.  No new perspectives are being added and all that is being proven is that people disagree with eachother (over and over).

It's not my place to say you can't carry on, but just asking that you consider the value and wisdom of it.

You make a fair point. However, at this stage I'm just defending my position from being distorted by the dissenters. As long as people keep misrepresenting my points, I will continue to shut them down. I will not allow them to paint this as something it isn't. That's why this is going in circles; nobody will engage me honestly. Xizi has made a mild effort, but then falls back onto the same tired old strawmen. Maybe if somebody tried to have a rational discussion about the actual issue rather than putting words in my mouth, we might find some common ground and who knows what could come out of it.

In any case, I applaud your level-headedness.

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