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Suggestion: Maybe Don't Encourage Transphobia


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@Gizmo@Lisa
I am...stunned. I was shocked when I found a thread titled "Shemales" started by Lisa. But it was started years ago, and I could hope that the devs had learned better by now. Then again, in-game poses between t-girls and men are still labeled "bisexual", so clearly we have work to do on learning how nuance in language matters.

Then this happened...

image.png.0261060ad3cf9da7b73ca7328f0aad90.png

Wow. Just...wow.

I mean, thank you for the bulging panties. That's a cute idea. Wouldn't mind some variety in appearance, but I'm not going to look that particular gift horse in the crotch mouth.

But this print...really? "I'TS A TRAP!" Really?

Let me explain. "Trap", in this context, is a transphobic slur. It's not a cute way to say "trans girl"; much like "shemale", it's a way for bigots to imply that we're men just trying to literally trap straight men into "gay sex". This phrase, in particular, is used not just to make this false accusation, but also to dehumanize us; we're not "she", but "it". This term's usage contributes to a culture of ignorance and hatred that helps these bigots justify assaulting and even murdering trans women (especially trans women of color), and getting away with it in court. Doubt me? Google the Trans Panic Defense.

(Please don't start in about how traps in anime or how traps aren't t-girls, or boys that identify as traps, blah, blah, blah. All of that just contributes to the problem, because the bigots don't care about those weak justifications. All they see/hear is "man pretending to be a women, trying to trick me into being gay"...and then a trans women gets attacked and/or killed.)

I can already hear the shouts of "it's just a game!" from the whiners. You're right, it's just a game, and everyone should be able to come play this game without it feeling like an unsafe or uncomfortable environment. This should be an escape from the hate and bigotry out in the real world, not a reflection of it. We may not be able to completely deter players from hateful behavior, but when this sort of thing is coming from the devs themselves, it shows that the problem is fundamental.

Edited by OzmaAsimov
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Considering this is a very sensitive topic, I'd like to toss in my two cents and hopefully it can be considered as just an opinion that may or may not align.

In a sense, I agree that the term(s) can be considered as a degrading slur. But I also believe a lot of that depends on the context in which it has been used. Yes, there are people who will say it with the intend of mocking or even discriminate and I definitely do not condone or justify that behavior.

However, since we're on the topic of fairness, acceptance and equality. I think it's being overlooked that many people also embrace the term and proudly name themselves this way. Again, this all comes down to context. I understand that they aren't for everyone, and as such, I'd suggest to simply refrain from using them if they offend you. But we can't go preaching open-mindedness and acceptance if we demand removal of certain means of expressing ones self. There are people out there who will proudly name themselves a "trap" and I believe it is their own right to do so.

Edited by LexaMeru
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3 hours ago, LexaMeru said:

Considering this is a very sensitive topic, I'd like to toss in my two cents and hopefully it can be considered as just an opinion that may or may not align.

In a sense, I agree that the term(s) can be considered as a degrading slur. But I also believe a lot of that depends on the context in which it has been used. Yes, there are people who will say it with the intend of mocking or even discriminate and I definitely do not condone or justify that behavior.

However, since we're on the topic of fairness, acceptance and equality. I think it's being overlooked that many people also embrace the term and proudly name themselves this way. Again, this all comes down to context. I understand that they aren't for everyone, and as such, I'd suggest to simply refrain from using them if they offend you. But we can't go preaching open-mindedness and acceptance if we demand removal of certain means of expressing ones self. There are people out there who will proudly name themselves a "trap" and I believe it is their own right to do so.

I get what you're saying. But let me put this in another perspective. Now imagine a clothing print displaying the n-word, and someone tries to justify it saying "some people embrace that word and it depends on context". I'm not even talking about the adapted word, "n***a". You know the word I mean. It's a horrible slur that has been used to oppress and dehumanize black people for centuries. See...some words are hurtful no matter the context. The only context that matters here is that the word "trap" is clearly in reference to the Admiral Ackbar meme (which itself has been weaponized against trans women), thus indicating the particular definition being used.

3 hours ago, Mylle said:

How about we not take everything so seriously. Plus I like it so don't ruin it for the rest of us.

Words like "trap", "shemale", "tranny" and so forth are used the same way as the n-word and a litany of other slurs to dehumanize and oppress trans women. I understand that some people like it. I really wish they would at least attempt to understand how their perpetuation of the word is harmful to another community. What they consider cute is feeding the bigotry and ignorance of transphobes, who are hurting and killing people in the real world. So, I will absolutely take this seriously, because it's a serious issue with serious consequences that "ruin it" for the lives of trans women.

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Do you think that there might be people out there that are attracted to "traps" or identify themselves as "traps"?

I think there is always someone looking for a cause and you feel this is yours. 

Just like everything else from racial slurs to bald jokes, to sexist jokes and anything else that can be looked at as negative are often times embraced by those that you would think would be offended. Stop telling group A that they should be offended that group B is ok with how they want to identify. Go on BET and tell them/us to stop using the word nigga, or tell gays to stop calling themselves/ourselves queer, or hell, even if we want to be called a fag here and there, I don't think that you should tell people how to describe us. If you don't want to use those underwear, then don't, but I would like to and I am sure I am not the only one. Don't be such a party pooper. We do not need you to protect us, you are not our hero... even though us helpless gay/trans/minorities need your help hahaha

Just shut your mouth and come chat with us!

And this goes to the developers; we appreciate your diversity, and sexiness. Keep it up!

;)

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2 hours ago, OzmaAsimov said:

Words like "trap", "shemale", "tranny" and so forth are used the same way as the n-word and a litany of other slurs to dehumanize and oppress trans women.

I'm oppressed by this nonsense. Let's ask everyone what oppresses them and our avatars will become minecraft-cubic-style if devs will delete all from this oppression list. And trans-spheres would be oppressed by wearing cubes too.

I found this print cute. To be honest, if I had a dick I would start any of my avatar with those thongs.

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Yup, here come all the whiners who prefer to have their slur instead of giving a damn about a vulnerable community being further oppressed and attacked. So predictable.

14 minutes ago, froad4life said:

Do you think that there might be people out there that are attracted to "traps" or identify themselves as "traps"?

Yes, and I addressed that in the very first post, and again in my response to Mylle. Clearly you didn't read it all the way through. Yet you seem to want to paint me as the reactionary when you are the one spouting off without attempting to understand the issue I'm raising. You're right, you don't need me to protect you. I'm trying to protect myself and those of my community that are too intimidated to speak out on their own.

Devs, this is not diversity, this is hate speech. Please, I am asking you to recognize the problem and be part of the solution. There are plenty of ways to show diversity and inclusiveness without plastering slurs on in-game items.

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While in general I enjoy the new update a lot, I personally find "IT'S A TRAP" print pretty distasteful so is all this meme (Yeah, I know that irl it can be a serious issue, but in internet its mostly used a meme still).

But, while I personally dislike this print, I don't think that removing it from the game would be a good idea. It would create an incident, where content can be removed because it offends someone. 

Then anything including the word "sissy" may end up removed as well because for some people this term is offensive/insulting slur too. 

Then it can be some rough poses with face slapping and choking because for some people it can wake up some pretty unpleasant memories of being raped.

I don't want to play a "sterile" game where everything that is offensive for someone or some group is getting removed. For some people even words like "slut" and "whore" may be too offensive. So what? 

No one forcing you to use this print. You can even block people who are using it if it offends you. But censorship is a worst solution. Let this place stay free. 

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Thank you to LexaMeru and Xizi for demonstrating how to disagree and still have a mature, civil discourse. The rest of you, take note.

25 minutes ago, Xizi said:

While in general I enjoy the new update a lot, I personally find "IT'S A TRAP" print pretty distasteful so is all this meme (Yeah, I know that irl it can be a serious issue, but in internet its mostly used a meme still).

But, while I personally dislike this print, I don't think that removing it from the game would be a good idea. It would create an incident, where content can be removed because it offends someone. 

Then anything including the word "sissy" may end up removed as well because for some people this term is offensive/insulting slur too. 

Then it can be some rough poses with face slapping and choking because for some people it can wake up some pretty unpleasant memories of being raped.

I don't want to play a "sterile" game where everything that is offensive for someone or some group is getting removed. For some people even words like "slut" and "whore" may be too offensive. So what? 

No one forcing you to use this print. You can even block people who are using it if it offends you. But censorship is a worst solution. Let this place stay free. 

I respectfully disagree. Even if I block every person using the print (which I don't think is a reasonable solution), I still have to see it every time I look at the character editor. Not just when cycling through prints, but it's even the chosen thumbnail for one of the t-girl panty options.

image.png.001b4fefe4d11b403373f72c7f38d255.png

You are falling into a slippery slope fallacy in assuming that removing one print containing a slur will mean "sterilizing" the entire game. That simply isn't true. What it would likely do, however, is set a precedent to avoid future slurs being added and hopefully promote some education about transphobic language and its impact.

Once again I have to bring up the example from before. What if they'd added a print that said, "N****r lover" or something to that effect? Would you really be opposed to its removal, worrying that it would lead to other things being removed because people find them offensive? Hate speech should have no place here, be it racist, sexist, transphobic, etc.

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4 minutes ago, OzmaAsimov said:

You are falling into a slippery slope fallacy in assuming that removing one print containing a slur will mean "sterilizing" the entire game.

No, I don't think that removing this print would lead to "sterilizing" the game. Actually, without this print alone game would be only better for my taste. A tiny little bit better, but still. But I think that removing a print because it offends someone would create the precedent. And since then everyone can ask to remove something that offends them using this precedent. Which eventually can lead to censoring game more and more. 

11 minutes ago, OzmaAsimov said:

What it would likely do, however, is set a precedent to avoid future slurs being added and hopefully promote some education about transphobic language and its impact.

But I don't want to set such a precedent. "Slut" and "Whore" are being seen by some people as a slurs too. Sexists slurs, shaming women who like promiscuity in sex. And I like being called these names in a heat of hot sex, I want those on the clothes and collars. Yes, EVEN if it offends others. Same goes for rough sexual poses, with choking, slapping, physical domination. I want it. Even if it hurts someone's feelings and wakes up bad memories. I hate censorship, I love freedom. Freedom for me is much more important that safety (mine or other people's) from offensive content. That's why I don't think me and you can really come to an agreement, I think we just have different priorities and believes. 

7 minutes ago, OzmaAsimov said:

Once again I have to bring up the example from before. What if they'd added a print that said, "N****r lover" or something to that effect? Would you really be opposed to its removal, worrying that it would lead to other things being removed because people find them offensive?

I would not be. But not because its offensive tbh (and IT IS offensive, I am just say that its not the reason in my case) but because it can create so much outrage that it can lead to death of the game, companies (the one who host servers or BMT Micro) can refuse to work with SexGameDevil if it will become a scandal, etc. Some things better just not do in a first place. Like adding "N****r lover" print. Well, adding "IT'S A TRAP" print was a poor decision too in my opinion, though about this case I believe that removing will cause more potential damage than leaving it be. 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, OzmaAsimov said:

Once again I have to bring up the example from before. What if they'd added a print that said, "N****r lover" or something to that effect? Would you really be opposed to its removal, worrying that it would lead to other things being removed because people find them offensive? Hate speech should have no place here, be it racist, sexist, transphobic, etc.

Look, they've added horns and wings. I found it offensive for followers of christian faith but I don't mind people who roleplay demons to wear this type of garment, they are the focus group of this product. Chokers with "whore", "sissy" tags? QoS tattoo? Face-slapping bdsm poses mentioned before? This is all hate, shaming, racism etc. But people tend to find all this forbidden real life shit stimulating their sexual drive. And you are offended by panties and segregate "uncivilized" people like a trans-hitler.

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6 minutes ago, Kutsi said:

And you are offended by panties and segregate "uncivilized" people

There is nothing wrong with being offended. Actually, everyone has a right to be offended.

But... Being offended is not a reason to ask to take away people's freedom and bring the censorship. Or at least I believe so. 

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35 minutes ago, Xizi said:

No, I don't think that removing this print would lead to "sterilizing" the game. Actually, without this print alone game would be only better for my taste. A tiny little bit better, but still. But I think that removing a print because it offends someone would create the precedent. And since then everyone can ask to remove something that offends them using this precedent. Which eventually can lead to censoring game more and more.

That's the slippery slope fallacy I was referring to. It does not follow that because a thing is done once, it must happen again.

28 minutes ago, Kutsi said:

Look, they've added horns and wings. I found it offensive for followers of christian faith but I don't mind people who roleplay demons to wear this type of garment, they are the focus group of this product. Chokers with "whore", "sissy" tags? QoS tattoo? Face-slapping bdsm poses mentioned before? This is all hate, shaming, racism etc. But people tend to find all this forbidden real life shit stimulating their sexual drive. And you are offended by panties and segregate "uncivilized" people like a trans-hitler.

I'm not offended by panties. I quite like the panties! Nor have I segregated anyone, or even have the power to do so. Trans-Hitler? Going right for the Hitler argument, now? That's desperate.

I invite all of my dissenters (civil and uncivil) to reread my original post. In fact, any of my posts here. Then, please quote for me where I've said anything like "I am offended by this".

You are putting words in my mouth and arguing against a strawman. This is not about "being offended". This is about language that contributes to a culture of hate that presents a very real danger to trans women. Life-threatening danger. This isn't about feelings being hurt. This is about trying to educate people to make some kind of impact to make the world a little safer for us. At the very least it's about convincing Gizmo and Lisa that when the game devs support this kind of language, it signals that it's just fine to be transphobic here. There is quite enough transphobia in 3DXChat already. We don't need to be blatantly indicating that it's sanctioned by the administration.

Edited by OzmaAsimov
Fixed a typo
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Well... I don't understand the word "slur" but anyway, i don't think in this print they are talking of the person but more about the penis/pussy (because i suppose this print is also available for women). Does it mean women should be shocked too when another woman wear this print ? Also i suppose this print is also available for men. Do men need to be shocked if another man show proudly some briefs saying "it's a trap" ?

Of course, if this print is only available one the panties for hmmm... how did you call them... ah yes ! If the print is available ONLY for trans women then yes you can be shocked, if it's available for everyone, then you can't be shocked.

Other option: Instead of removing the print, just add one letter. Transform "it's a trap" into "it's a strap"

Edited by Leeloo
added small joke at the end :D
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Honestly? As a transgender person, I kind of cringe at people pulling "sexism/transphobia/homophobia/insertwhateveryouwanthere" cards this quickly. The reason people use these as slurs is very simple: People get ticked off at them, they get offended and get their panties up in a bunch and frankly speaking, I truly believe getting offended is a choice.

Why is a term a slur? Because people get offended by them. The sooner people make the choice to not get offended and not get outraged over them, the quicker they'll lose their meaning.

Comparing the N-word to any word associated with transphobia doesn't make any sense to me, either. The N-word is a word that has been around for god knows how long, there's so much history attached to it, it's completely uncomparable to any slur used to refer to transgender people.

Edit:
After posting, I think using the term "Super-straight" is a good example of what I believe is a far more effective way of dealing with discrimination. You're probably aware of the term, but if you're not, to give a very short summary: It's a sexual orientation "made up" by people on social media that are transphobic. The term means they're not attracted to transgenders.

Instead of getting outraged over this sexual orientation, I wish people would've embraced it and started accepting it. Why? Because I don't think it's wrong for a guy(edit2: ANYONE) to have some way of expressing their lack of sexual attraction to a person with a penis.. Some people just like vagina's, they don't want to see, touch or be anywhere near a dick. Does that make them transphobic or homophobic? Not in my opinion......

I would have loved to see the term "super-straight" become accepted... Why? Because, IN MY OPINION, there's no bigger F-you to transphobes than making a term THEY CREATED TO BE OFFENSIVE accepted.

 

 

Edited by Neekee
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In the context of a

7 minutes ago, Diana Prince said:

It's not trivialising. Make a survey:

What do you think about when you hear "It's a trap!"

A: Star Wars
B: a girl with a dick

My guess is, 95% would answer "A".

How about we make an ACTUAL survey with the image of said underwear? The quote without any other cotext would be attributed to Star Wars, yes. Put in this context, I challenge you to pove that to still be true.

EDIT: Putting my money where my mouth is and doing myself, rather than aggressively suggesting that someone else do it.

 

Edited by EllysPerani
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Just now, EllysPerani said:

In the context of a

How about we make an ACTUAL survey with the image of said underwear? The quote without any other cotext would be attributed to Star Wars, yes. Put in this context, I challenge you to pove that to still be true.

95% of people would have never heard of the expression "trap" for a girly cock. Even less the German word "Falle" for it. Even WITH a picture.

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