Donate feature: Cons and Pros.

[Anaganda]

17 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Actually, we added donations to support party organizers (they can also be builders, DJs, or anyone else). We want the game to have more awesome events and parties so players can support the hosts they love.

This does not mean that players have to pay. Asking and demanding payment is prohibited. Donation is a voluntary desire to support the host. If someone demands payment from you, refuse it.

 

May I suggest to add a way to have a toggle switch to make room files editable or uneditable.
I think that way it will solve builders problems of having their rooms used for profit... since you can only put that link through WE.

[THX]

There is an upside to all this too.

With the Donate feature, someone having something bad happen in life could have a fundraiser held for them.

Or, if Gizmo wanted more events, they could create a link that goes into an account they would control and send a check to some charitable organization for some special event that was held.

Years ago, in another world we hosted a Toys for Tots event for Christmas for children who wern't going to get anything. All donations from donators went to the company from the event who then sent the check.. it made people feel more secure there was no bullshit going on.  I believe that and others are still being held yearly.

It was over $4000 raised in 48 hours.

Edited July 30, 2020 by THX

[MeiLing]

1 hour ago, Gizmo said:

Actually, we added donations to support party organizers (they can also be builders, DJs, or anyone else). We want the game to have more awesome events and parties so players can support the hosts they love.

This does not mean that players have to pay. Asking and demanding payment is prohibited. Donation is a voluntary desire to support the host. If someone demands payment from you, refuse it.

 

Let me think... don't you have some of the most beautiful place in the game (well when you fixed the glitches...) and you are not able to think about a way to organize 3DX events in the game with the help of your official DJs ? For Halloween? Saint Paddy? Valentine day or New Year Day? Wouldn't it be great to have this kind of events? Does it cost you a lot? I don't think. That might be great for the community...and no need for donation...

[☙𝔼𝕩❧]

5 minutes ago, MeiLing said:

and no need for donation...

Is someone ask for a donation?

[Aliviax]

3 hours ago, BadWord said:

Can I sell your rooms Ali?

for now my rooms  u are free to earn donations from hosting  be it free or paid u cant resell it lol but ur free to earn donations from hosting ill say again ..

what u ask bad world will be a new service ill start giving to ppl  but not yet fully ready 

But when its live u will be able to even resell my rooms as long as u bought the room from that particular service or category that i will create  

 

 

[jadekali]

10 hours ago, THX said:

Love the idea Gizmo about donate.  I really do like the idea if being a to 'donate.'  I also like the idea of Xgold transfer. I'll keep this brief and mildly entertaining. Without enforcement here are things you may have to deal with.

 

If I was an asshole....

I'd make a room using another account and sell things others made as mine till things got too hot. Then I would make another room with a new account and repeat till it got too hot again.

 

If i was an asshole...

I might open a brothel and require patrons to 'donate' for 'services.'  And after payment or poor service or no service, simply close up and laugh at how i just scammed them.

 

If I was an asshole...

For a donation' up front will show you a good time in my place. And after payment, simply close the room. Rinse and repeat.

If I was an asshole...

(This one makes a lot of money)

"Oh Gizmo...I'd love to cam for you on skype, but my dog died, I have no money...and I really need $50 dollars to pay for my daughters life saving treatment...you sexy hunk of man you. But, if you wanna help poor little me, you can donate in my room and I'll meet you on Skype."

 

One last one...but there are so many I've seen.

 

If I was an asshole...

I'd use a room and the donate feature to claim to provide complete hosting packages. I'd offer - for a fee up front, to provide DJ's  greeters, and and dance teams to make your club popular. I'd pay some and not others. I'd promise to pay them and when I can't put them off anymore I may take what I made delete that account and lay low for awhile till I thought of how to pull that off again.

 

Just a few things to think of.

Last 4 aren't your problem. That is user to user, but you will hear complaints for sure and will need to spell that out.   First one is though.

 

ok....some of these I know nothing about ...but the one about hookers scamming very rarely happened at Achat....and I had them quickly banned when I was a Mentor there and Vaughn(also a mentor) will back me up on that .....it is in every hookers best interest to have them removed and they were.....It is bad for business for brothels to have that kind of reputation and it doesn't take long to find out 

99.9% were honest escorts that never ripped off anyone....I believe the players in 3dx are even MORE honest because they have to pay to be here.....I don't really see this as being an issue at all   

I don't blame you for being skittish about it ....like most players are right now(even my own tech administrator has misgivings about this)but I believe the masses will come around eventually and the gold exchange will be as common here as its been for years on Achat

also....I'm going to take a wild stab here and predict that Gizmo will soon be introducing his version of "Mentors".   

Edited July 30, 2020 by jadekali

[THX]

2 hours ago, jadekali said:

ok....some of these I know nothing about ...but the one about hookers scamming very rarely happened at Achat....and I had them quickly banned when I was a Mentor there and Vaughn(also a mentor) will back me up on that .....it is in every hookers best interest to have them removed and they were.....It is bad for business for brothels to have that kind of reputation and it doesn't take long to find out 

99.9% were honest escorts that never ripped off anyone....I believe the players in 3dx are even MORE honest because they have to pay to be here.....I don't really see this as being an issue at all   

I don't blame you for being skittish about it ....like most players are right now(even my own tech administrator has misgivings about this)but I believe the masses will come around eventually and the gold exchange will be as common here as its been for years on Achat

also....I'm going to take a wild stab here and predict that Gizmo will soon be introducing his version of "Mentors".   

 

I'm not worried about it in the least. I like the idea personally,  and I also know how it can be abused. You can do a lot of good things with donate as they intended it. I  wasn't sure if Gizmo was aware of some of theCons that can creep up. It was  meant to be a 'heads up.' and then there are the pros:

Event's like:

• "Save the Ta Ta's" for Breast Cancer cancer research could be done.
•  "Autism Awareness"
•   "Disabled Vets"
• Hardships
• Or just plan showing a little support to a DJ or host.

Edited July 30, 2020 by THX

[HazyRays]

Surely setting up an event for Cancer Research or Autism Awareness, etc and running off with the money should have appeared in your opening post?

 

[THX]

29 minutes ago, HazyRays said:

Surely setting up an event for Cancer Research or Autism Awareness, etc and running off with the money should have appeared in your opening post?

 

I think that was plenty of examples. Don't you?

As for solutions, don't donate to someone you don't trust, and for certain events approved by the company, they could provide a link themselves.

 

[HazyRays]

You created a thread giving examples showing how the donate feature could be abused and then used one of the most often used pretexts for a scam as an example of a 'pro' of the feature.

I found that confusing.  

[RebeccaCraven]

Ohhh, the brave new world economy idea again.  Love it/hate it.  Let the games begin!

[Leeloo]

Well it's a nice discution, though about the events things, it's totally useless. Cancer research ? pff... Autism and oll the others option ? pfft... All the peoples will do will be to try to sell rooms or sell their "bodies" with this feature. Nobody will organize events about the cancer and then send the money they get for the research. Peoples want to show respect to DJs ? They first need to listen the said DJs. I can't count the number of times where i've said in a room "oohh i love this song !" and then inevitably some anwser "Which song ?" or "I don't listen, i listen my music on youtube".

On 7/30/2020 at 8:38 PM, jadekali said:

 

also....I'm going to take a wild stab here and predict that Gizmo will soon be introducing his version of "Mentors".   

If by "mentor" you mean moderators, i fear that the anwser will be nope. There's a long time now that devs decided that they didn't want moderators, here or in game

 

Ps: Before some yell at me with some "how dare you criticize cancer/autism etc events, you don't know what you are talking about", i lost few members of my familly from cancers so i know exactly what i'm talking about

Edited August 1, 2020 by Leeloo

[MeiLing]

There was already events:

https://3dxforum.com/index.php?/search/&q=breast&quick=1&type=forums_topic&nodes=5

Oh no need of patreon for this... 

 

[MNF Lady]

Regarding making money out of somebody else's rooms, the legality depends on the license terms these rooms were released under. The 3dxchatsharing.com for example, says on its front page "Builders:you willingly give away your creation for free and those can be used in any way by users". Not quite a formal copyright, but it is a clear statement that it is an unrestricted release. So other than all of us that have morals saying and knowing that it's wrong, there is no way to prevent anyone cashing in from someone else's work.

However, if everyone started to put donation links into downloaded rooms, the market will bring the value of these rooms to zero. I am in 3DX a lot, so I can easily recognize the room I have seen before and most people can too. So it is unlikely that hosts trying to profit from other people's work will make much. They may make some pocket change, but not much. Only the true original creations, that aren't freely shared around will have value. So this will incentivize the builders to keep rooms to themselves and only share among trusted circles of collaborators (hosts, DJs, and so on) who will respect their terms. Often, builders, hosts, and DJs are separate persons, so we will likely see the teams form.

I have built a few rooms and I don't give my designs to anyone, not because I want to make money off them, but because I want the rooms in which I host my parties to be unique. I don't plan to put any Patreon link on my rooms and have no plans to make money off them.

 

MNF Lady#5914

[Torax]

10 minutes ago, MNF Lady said:

Regarding making money out of somebody else's rooms, the legality depends on the license terms these rooms were released under. The 3dxchatsharing.com for example, says on its front page "Builders:you willingly give away your creation for free and those can be used in any way by users". Not quite a formal copyright, but it is a clear statement that it is an unrestricted release. So other than all of us that have morals saying and knowing that it's wrong, there is no way to prevent anyone cashing in from someone else's work.

 

Well, I modified it as my intention was to say that people can use them as sex room party room or whatever, without complain, the commercial side never crossed my mind. I took it out, therefore it is the normal copyright that apply and fair use as well in case of complain.

[Alliehotass]

Patreon has  Lost a HUGE Lawsuit..... they could now be inundated with claims and could be the end of them.......

 

 

[Angixoxo]

Just change the wording from dontate to creator to donate to host.... would make me as a builder feel much better that proper credit would be given for the right reasons, but thats my personal opinion so  ready, go, roast away

[moondance]

Im going to look for a consistent track record and avatars that have been around awhile before I even consider any type of payment.  And consider the free options as well.    

[JenniferBoise]

To take up the issue of reselling again:
You have NO right to sell a room that you received free of charge.
A room that is bought becomes personal property and may be sold. As in the real world, in which personal property can be sold at any time without first obtaining the consent of the author.
Personally, I will not do that, but this is the same legal situation worldwide, and this also applies in chat worlds.

[Fyrefly]

Hi guys,

Time again for old Lazlo to wildly misunderstand things and ask a silly question:

Where does it say that "Donate to Creator" means "Buy the Room and/or all it's contents"? As I understood it, it's a way to throw a few sheckles as thanks to someone who has put together a cool space, and gets a bit of real world compensation for their time and effort. I don't think there's a transfer of ownership any more than I "own" a song that I am streaming or a TV show that I am watching. Yes, If I want to set up a site and actually sell downloadable .world files, I better have some way to copy protect each of those pieces of data. (Good luck with that.) Right now there is literally no way to do that. And setting aside the whole thing of open use of a room shared on Torax' site (or any other), even a room that has built in signature objects (like I've seen in Amy LaRouche's room and others) can just be altered to remove that signature. Unless you can figure out a way to PROVE that a set of primitives in THIS combination with THESE dimensions and THIS texture map was created solely by you, you got squat.

I will proudly admit up front that I am a shamelessly lazy object thief...within the existing (pre-donate) environment. If I want to make the kitchen in my house look lived in, and I don't have the time or the energy to make a bunch of kitchen clutter, Imma go steal it from someone who has put in the time and effort. (And when I am able, I will thank them profusely for it.) No, I never claim that someone else's stuff is mine, and if I decide to set up a Patreon page, I'm going to make sure that every contributor I remember is recognized. Yeah, I expect other people won't do that, and if not, they are douches of the lowest grade...But my places are always gonna be combos of my stuff, and others. It would be cool to get some love for how I put it all together into a coherent whole that people respond to.

Right now, our World Editor is like a big musical instrument, and each element used in construction is like the notes. Combinations of those notes created by others are like samples, and you can sample all you want, you just better be clear that's what you're doing up front, or your gonna get called out on it. A 100% truly original composition is a thing of beauty, and deserves to be recognized. But just remember, as soon as it's out there, it's gonna get sampled too. And I can't claim ownership of the musical note "A".

(Yeah, I know you can copyright songs, and I know the metaphor isn't perfect...but we don't have the tools to really secure ownership of rooms and objects in the same way, is my point, especially when everything created technically belongs to SexGameDevil anyway.) 

As for all of the other stuff ...yeah, people suck. Welcome to the Internet.

Laz

Edited August 3, 2020 by Fyrefly

[Selector]

On 7/30/2020 at 10:01 AM, THX said:

Love the idea Gizmo about donate.  I really do like the idea if being a to 'donate.'  I also like the idea of Xgold transfer. I'll keep this brief and mildly entertaining. Without enforcement here are things you may have to deal with.

 

If I was an asshole....

I'd make a room using another account and sell things others made as mine till things got too hot. Then I would make another room with a new account and repeat till it got too hot again.

 

If i was an asshole...

I might open a brothel and require patrons to 'donate' for 'services.'  And after payment or poor service or no service, simply close up and laugh at how i just scammed them.

 

If I was an asshole...

For a donation' up front will show you a good time in my place. And after payment, simply close the room. Rinse and repeat.

If I was an asshole...

(This one makes a lot of money)

"Oh Gizmo...I'd love to cam for you on skype, but my dog died, I have no money...and I really need $50 dollars to pay for my daughters life saving treatment...you sexy hunk of man you. But, if you wanna help poor little me, you can donate in my room and I'll meet you on Skype."

 

One last one...but there are so many I've seen.

 

If I was an asshole...

I'd use a room and the donate feature to claim to provide complete hosting packages. I'd offer - for a fee up front, to provide DJ's  greeters, and and dance teams to make your club popular. I'd pay some and not others. I'd promise to pay them and when I can't put them off anymore I may take what I made delete that account and lay low for awhile till I thought of how to pull that off again.

 

Just a few things to think of.

Last 4 aren't your problem. That is user to user, but you will hear complaints for sure and will need to spell that out.   First one is though.

 

People could already do all those things using paypal, for example. But they don't. /thread

[Kalli]

On 7/30/2020 at 5:01 AM, THX said:

Love the idea Gizmo about donate.  I really do like the idea if being a to 'donate.'  I also like the idea of Xgold transfer. I'll keep this brief and mildly entertaining. Without enforcement here are things you may have to deal with.

 

If I was an asshole....

I'd make a room using another account and sell things others made as mine till things got too hot. Then I would make another room with a new account and repeat till it got too hot again.

 

If i was an asshole...

I might open a brothel and require patrons to 'donate' for 'services.'  And after payment or poor service or no service, simply close up and laugh at how i just scammed them.

 

If I was an asshole...

For a donation' up front will show you a good time in my place. And after payment, simply close the room. Rinse and repeat.

If I was an asshole...

(This one makes a lot of money)

"Oh Gizmo...I'd love to cam for you on skype, but my dog died, I have no money...and I really need $50 dollars to pay for my daughters life saving treatment...you sexy hunk of man you. But, if you wanna help poor little me, you can donate in my room and I'll meet you on Skype."

 

One last one...but there are so many I've seen.

 

If I was an asshole...

I'd use a room and the donate feature to claim to provide complete hosting packages. I'd offer - for a fee up front, to provide DJ's  greeters, and and dance teams to make your club popular. I'd pay some and not others. I'd promise to pay them and when I can't put them off anymore I may take what I made delete that account and lay low for awhile till I thought of how to pull that off again.

 

Just a few things to think of.

Last 4 aren't your problem. That is user to user, but you will hear complaints for sure and will need to spell that out.   First one is though.

 

I seen all these happen on major MMO titles, you can not prevent it but you shouldn't let it stop you from trying to make things better. 

 

[THX]

On 8/3/2020 at 11:58 AM, Fyrefly said:

Hi guys,

Time again for old Lazlo to wildly misunderstand things and ask a silly question:

Where does it say that "Donate to Creator" means "Buy the Room and/or all it's contents"? As I understood it, it's a way to throw a few sheckles as thanks to someone who has put together a cool space, and gets a bit of real world compensation for their time and effort. I don't think there's a transfer of ownership any more than I "own" a song that I am streaming or a TV show that I am watching. Yes, If I want to set up a site and actually sell downloadable .world files, I better have some way to copy protect each of those pieces of data. (Good luck with that.) Right now there is literally no way to do that. And setting aside the whole thing of open use of a room shared on Torax' site (or any other), even a room that has built in signature objects (like I've seen in Amy LaRouche's room and others) can just be altered to remove that signature. Unless you can figure out a way to PROVE that a set of primitives in THIS combination with THESE dimensions and THIS texture map was created solely by you, you got squat.

I will proudly admit up front that I am a shamelessly lazy object thief...within the existing (pre-donate) environment. If I want to make the kitchen in my house look lived in, and I don't have the time or the energy to make a bunch of kitchen clutter, Imma go steal it from someone who has put in the time and effort. (And when I am able, I will thank them profusely for it.) No, I never claim that someone else's stuff is mine, and if I decide to set up a Patreon page, I'm going to make sure that every contributor I remember is recognized. Yeah, I expect other people won't do that, and if not, they are douches of the lowest grade...But my places are always gonna be combos of my stuff, and others. It would be cool to get some love for how I put it all together into a coherent whole that people respond to.

Right now, our World Editor is like a big musical instrument, and each element used in construction is like the notes. Combinations of those notes created by others are like samples, and you can sample all you want, you just better be clear that's what you're doing up front, or your gonna get called out on it. A 100% truly original composition is a thing of beauty, and deserves to be recognized. But just remember, as soon as it's out there, it's gonna get sampled too. And I can't claim ownership of the musical note "A".

(Yeah, I know you can copyright songs, and I know the metaphor isn't perfect...but we don't have the tools to really secure ownership of rooms and objects in the same way, is my point, especially when everything created technically belongs to SexGameDevil anyway.) 

As for all of the other stuff ...yeah, people suck. Welcome to the Internet.

Laz

 

Of course you can prove things. It's done all the time in worlds with economies and people are banned for it. Also, when you report someone you provide screen shots and proof of claim. It's no different.

 

Many seem to misunderstand what 'sharing' is. In  VR worlds, to agree to share is to agree with the company that that they can redistribute what your sharing to other users. without such an agreement, the company couldn't list user rooms and could get  into problems. in order to go into a room like "80's hits buy X" they had to agree to share the file on the platform.  "sharing" does not mean you lose any rights to your creation.  Additionally there are personal use and Commercial use. Just read the Unity Store TOS on store assets to understand the various differences. The store has to secure an agreement from the creator to list their asset, which the creator of the asset has to agree in order for it to be listed on the store? Make sense?

These issues were brought up and ultimately answered buy an attorney who represents the Unity Store - when the idea of being able to use free use Unity assets in the Unity competitor to 3DX called Curio and the Unity Store Attorney was asked and replied to "free asset" use.  To avoid writing a lengthy thing,  even if it is listed as a free asset on Unity Asset Store, you can't bring it into say 3DX and redistribute it or share it. Only SexyDevil can - UNLESS you get special permission from the asset creator because you become a 3rd party distributor AND SExyDevil.

https://unity3d.com/legal/as_terms

Perhaps an easy example is a AirBnB. When you rent or if someone gives you use for free, you in no way own their property, or anything they have in it.  you can use it in defined parameters. You can't simply give it to someone else if you don't use it unless spelled out. Nor can you take anything in their house.

Edited August 6, 2020 by THX

[Fyrefly]

4 minutes ago, THX said:

 

Of course you can prove things. It's done all the time in worlds with economies and people are banned for it. Also, when you report someone you provide screen shots and proof of claim. It's no different.

I get your main point, and agree, but forgive me if I'm a little bit skeptical, at least with how things are set up here right now. If we've got provisions in place to time stamp a created object in a specific combination, or show a screenshot when the item is made that can be trusted as authentic, great. I'd like to see it in practice...(and I know my own experience with it may be limited...I'm still being cautious.)

All of that aside, though...my original arguments remain. Donating as it seems to be intended by Gizmo does not mean "buying" someone else's room design or contents, does not transfer any ownership, and should not require any compensation to other designers if the room includes any non-original, shared or public content. I think it is (and should be) a recognition of the time and energy required to put together a cool design, made from original or shared content. For now, let it be that. If people decide to be douche-y and abuse the system (or when, sadly), and try to charge people for other stuff, we'll blow up that bridge when we come to it.

Laz 

[THX]

6 minutes ago, Fyrefly said:

I get your main point, and agree, but forgive me if I'm a little bit skeptical, at least with how things are set up here right now. If we've got provisions in place to time stamp a created object in a specific combination, or show a screenshot when the item is made that can be trusted as authentic, great. I'd like to see it in practice...(and I know my own experience with it may be limited...I'm still being cautious.)

All of that aside, though...my original arguments remain. Donating as it seems to be intended by Gizmo does not mean "buying" someone else's room design or contents, does not transfer any ownership, and should not require any compensation to other designers if the room includes any non-original, shared or public content. I think it is (and should be) a recognition of the time and energy required to put together a cool design, made from original or shared content. For now, let it be that. If people decide to be douche-y and abuse the system (or when, sadly), and try to charge people for other stuff, we'll blow up that bridge when we come to it.

Laz 

 

All I can tell you is that screenshots and documentation are proof enough in other worlds. In a world like RLC, if you tried to sell a bike made here and owned by "Joe,"  if Joe provided proof... you'd be banned within days after they investigated it. Even if it was made here.

I've always thought the best way to establish a 'paper trail' is to post it in a forum threadlike  before sharing as one form of proof. But that isn't required.

Edited August 6, 2020 by THX